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Team Skull
Aug Member 2008

Team Skull

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Hauk said :

Progress has to be celebrated in order to be fully recognised.

That means effective nothing.

Do we, generally speaking, throw parties when our kids say their first word? No.

Or when they begin to walk? No.

Or when they are successfully potty trained? No.

IF we are to make the argument that it's perfectly natural, then why are we treating it as if it is something unnatural by "celebrating" it?

It just sounds like attention whoring for the sake of it, if I may be completely honest. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

15-Nov-2017 12:38:53

Hauk

Hauk

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Those are very different examples, they're milestones reached by an individual rather than social changes.

But, despite that, those are also things that should be celebrated and praised. I'd like to think most parents will praise their children for reaching milestones such as first word, learning to walk. It's the praise and encouragement that they get from their parents that helps them to develop further.
Hauk

15-Nov-2017 12:41:20

Team Skull
Aug Member 2008

Team Skull

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Hauk said :
Those are very different examples, they're milestones reached by an individual rather than social changes.

But they're perfectly natural, hence the connection.

Hell, I'll extend it- did we celebrate in the 70s when Autism Spectrum Disorder was moved from a subdiagnosis of schizophrenia to become its own diagnosis?

Or when Asperger's became its own diagnosis in the mid 1990s?

Or when Social Communcations Disorder became its own diagnosis in 2013?

Despite mental illness/cognitive disorders still having the stigma it has all of these decades later?

No to all of those. Why? Because even if it may be "progress", it makes a mockery of those who are affected by these disorders and by extension, the disorders themselves. It reinforces the idea that they're not normal people and they are to be treated differently (Read: primarily like idiots), much like what is going on now with LGBT+ advocacy.

Which leads me to, again, asking: Why are we celebrating this as if it is something abnormal/unnatural if we want it to be seen as normal/natural? "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

15-Nov-2017 12:52:01 - Last edited on 15-Nov-2017 12:53:11 by Team Skull

Hauk

Hauk

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If all children learnt to walk on the same day, we would have public celebrations for it. But they don't. Because it's individual to the child and the family, there are private celebrations within the family unit when their child reaches that milestone.

I'm not familiar with the history of Asperger's, so I won't try to confirm or deny whether celebrations took place or not. However, I do know that we have a number of mental health awareness days, including those specificially for ASD. Those days are for raising awareness of the cause and marking progress, just like the LGBTQ community has various Pride days. They are a time to reflect on the past, celebrate progress and look towards the future.

You could perhaps draw similarities with a number of other situations, for example the UN International Day of Peace and Rememberance Day or Veterans Day. People celebrated the end of war, not to normalise peace, but instead to recognise that the terrible events of the war were coming to an end. Now, we reflect annually on the mistakes of the past and the lives lost, as well as celebrating progress.
Hauk

15-Nov-2017 13:11:27

Hauk

Hauk

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Team Skull said :
Which leads me to, again, asking: Why are we celebrating this as if it is something abnormal/unnatural if we want it to be seen as normal/natural?

To directly answer this...

We are celebrating the decision, but at the same time it's about sending a reminder that things are getting better, as well as sending a message of hope that progress will continue. The celebrations prevent us from forgetting the battles and suffering that has eventually led us to this change.

It's not about natural and normal, it's about the continual process. The fact that you may see it as a sudden change between natural and unnuatural is an example of why we need to continue to raise awareness and acknowledge the small changes. These are just individual steps in part of a larger process. People had to work very hard for each and every step - it wasn't easy. We need to recognise and celebrate that effort as well as empowering people to continue with further progress.

To look at it as a simple celebration is wrong, it's part of the continual effort of raising awareness of the things that aren't resolved. The outcome of a vote is a result, but it doesn't mean the process is complete. It takes many generations for things to take full effect, like how there is still stigma around mental health issues, despite many improvements to the way that those with mental health conditions are treated.
Hauk

15-Nov-2017 13:18:38 - Last edited on 15-Nov-2017 13:32:04 by Hauk

Team Skull
Aug Member 2008

Team Skull

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Hauk said :
If all children learnt to walk on the same day, we would have public celebrations for it. But they don't.

My point exactly- so why celebrate it?

Hauk said :

I'm not familiar with the history of Asperger's, so I won't try to confirm or deny whether celebrations took place or not. However, I do know that we have a number of mental health awareness days, including those specificially for ASD.

And I am against those. Hell, I am against advocacy by and large in general, because people can't differentiate between merits and characteristics.

Like do we care that George Takei is gay? No, we care that he is a good actor.

Or that Ellen Degeneres is a lesbian? No, we care she is a very influential TV personality.

Or that Neil Degrasse Tyson is black? No, we care he is an influential contemporary astrophysicist and he even makes it a point himself to explicitly decline interviews where the main focus is his race.

Or that Einstein had what is consistent with Asperger's? No, we care he changed how we look at the universe.

Like if your most defining "merit" is being a dude that likes Steve, or a chick that likes Stacy, or a dude that likes both Steve and Stacy, so on and so forth, then it raises questions as to your value in society, as bluntly as that sounds.

Fact of the matter is, advocacy and these "Celebrations" (I personally call them mockeries) fails to address the merits of these people and instead focuses on just the characteristic(s), which is why we get the social blowback that we do.

Which goes back to the main question, and raises another one:

Why are we acting as if this is something abnormal by pointing it out if we're trying to make it normal?

and

Why aren't we advocating for the merits of these people?

Like I said, I chalk it up to senseless attention whoring. "Revenge...is like a rolling stone, which, when a man hath forced up a hill, will return upon him with a greater violence, and break those bones whose sinews gave it motion."- Jeremy Taylor

15-Nov-2017 13:58:40

Hauk

Hauk

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Team Skull said :
Hauk said :
If all children learnt to walk on the same day, we would have public celebrations for it. But they don't.

My point exactly- so why celebrate it?


You have lost me with this.

Legalisation of gay marriage = covers wider society, everyone within a state, country, province etc.

A child learning to walk = only that child, not all children.

We celebrate gay marriage publically because it impacts wider society.

One child learning to walk at any given time, only impacts those immediately around that child. So it is only those people that celebrate it.

This is why we publically celebrate the founding of (or independence of) a country, because it relates to everyone within that country. But we don't publically celebrate a random individuals birthday, because it only relates to that individual not everyone, so a private celebration is more appropriate.
Hauk

15-Nov-2017 14:07:17

Hauk

Hauk

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Also please remember that people who are proud of their sexual identity aren't trying to say it's the only thing of interest about them. It is just one part.

It is partly down to a personal sense of self, the way in which someone wants to describe themselves and what things they relate to. It's also cultural.

LGBTQ culture is no different to black culture or anything else. It's not about "I'm this and nothing else" it's saying "I'm this. I'm proud to be this. This is just part of me, but right now this is what I'm talking about."
Hauk

15-Nov-2017 15:06:49

Exit Wound

Exit Wound

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Ancient Drew said :
Being gay was once considered not only unnatural, but also a sin. I'm not sure if autism was labelled a sin before, and never heard of any instances of such.

im atheist but if your christian or catholic... being gay is still a sin and your doomed for hell if you remain gay.. i personally dont give a shit if 2 men or 2 women wanna be together but thats wut the bible pushers believe. some ppl are also gonna believe it is unnatural and theres something mentally wrong with gays and transexuals..not my opinion just saying thats how it is and how it always will be. will acceptence grow? sure.. will everyone eventually agree with it n accept it? no. "all we are is dust in the wind"

- Kansas

15-Nov-2017 16:01:50

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