RuneScape Forum Archive | R Quark (Rare Quark) FC / CC

Brad 76

Posts: 1,380 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Just a follow up question, why is the "extra information" so important to these items but not for the rest of the items we PC?

If we are going to use a math formula to create a range for these items why not for all the items?

IMO the range serves one purpose, it gives a mental ceiling and floor to those items. Why not do the same for the other items. If we are going to hassle now with creating a range for 7 of our items I see little reason why we wouldn't go thru the hassle of creating a range for the other 12 items we PC.

Now that so many of the items are above max cash we are going to have to at least start thinking about a different process IMO.

An adverage PC is no different than a mid ge price point, items still get bought and sold for whatever the community want to buy and sell them for, an excellent example of this is Half Jug of wine, frequently traded in the 500-600m above ge mid and doesn't seem to effect the market for them one bit.

Let the community decide what it wants to trade these items for why are we giving suggestions other than a mid point. We could follow a similar process as Jagex does on the most an items adverages could change between updates, but I see little reason in the hassle to create a range instead of an adverage, unless this information is so vital that we should consider doing it for all items.

13-Oct-2015 16:37:55 - Last edited on 13-Oct-2015 16:46:50 by Brad 76

Aug

2015

P andaForce

Posts: 236 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

As someone who hasn't been involved in quark for quite a while now, my opinion may be overlooked or irrelevant, but to state it anyway in case it might influence anyone:

I've never really been on board with the single number pcing for max+ items until all hats out of ge, I definitely see the appeal for easier pcing nowadays. I remember Hyles talking this many many months ago, in that a range would still be developed and the single number would just be the center of the range.

That being said, after reading Sz's post about the extra information it gives (namely the approx high/low, or a general margin), I'm siding with him in that a full range is probably best. The aim of R Quark has always been to provide the most accurate price checks possible, and this method has been refined and refined and I honestly feel that any further changes will only be taking away from accuracy in one way or another. This includes fewer trades necessary to update it - with all hats out of GE, street flipping must be at an all time high and reaching the approximate 10 trades can't be too awfully bad. Ranges are meant to be a guideline and will always lag behind the "true current value". Updating at less than 10 makes it much easier for a cleverly faked trade to affect the range, and manipulation to seep into the FC.
Brad 76 said :
If we are going to use a math formula to create a range for these items why not for all the items? Simple answer to this is that it wouldn't be as accurate as possible, B/S are as accurate as GE pricing can get as it's based of the most up to date non conflicted report. A range for these items would start to impose a Nex and SS style of pcing, which we've all bitched about at one point or another.

(continued)

Stay happy.

PandaForce v2 - I will return, I will rebuild.

14-Oct-2015 03:03:20

Aug

2015

P andaForce

Posts: 236 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Brad 76 said :
IMO the range serves one purpose, it gives a mental ceiling and floor to those items. Again, everyone knows ranges are only guidelines, many people frequently trade above and below the range. This argument really doesn't hold any weight in that regard.

TLDR - current range system proven best for 20th time c ya new ideas

Stay happy.

PandaForce v2 - I will return, I will rebuild.

14-Oct-2015 03:04:46

Brad 76

Posts: 1,380 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ty for the feedback @Panda.

Two things, if a range is the most accurate method, then why would a range for a lower be inaccurate? If it makes the Partyhats more accurate, please tell me how a pc of Green ween for example at 105s - 105.9b wouldn't be more accurate than the last trade at 105.7b which for example is the last update given but within the last three hours pcs in between 105 and 105.9 have been given. If the range information makes the partyhats more accurate then please explain how it wouldn't make the lowers more accurate?

Your second comment only further proves my point that the range information isn't nearly as vital as everyone puts forward as you state and we all know "many people frequently trade above and below the range". If we are going to be painfully honest more times than not the lower ones are not reported as frequently as the higher ones even with the items within the ge. People are normally more willing to report their high sales than their low buys. So what the range does in reality is puts a false bottom in the pcing of the item, it's unnecessary, it's certainly not vital in "being accurate". If it is as vital as people want to make it we need to give this "vital" information on the other 12 items we price check.

Respectfully Brad 76

What we are not is a flipping chat, we are a price checking friend chat this is well established unless of course we are talking about items over max cash then suddenly we turn into a flipping chat with our ranges, imo its just inconsistent and now that many of our items are above max cash we must start to look at changing the way we price check these items, because we are quickly becoming a flipping chat. If it's imperative information to give the most accurate prices on items then we should convert all our prices to that format imo, and give up on our core mechanic of being a price checking fc.

14-Oct-2015 04:28:46 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 05:11:27 by Brad 76

Brad 76

Posts: 1,380 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Short list of my suggestion for an average item price for items over max stack.

1. Averages will be adjusted with every 10 confirmed trades throwing out the lowest and highest to improve accuracy if there are real outliers (whatever we decide this is) if not all will be used.

2. Averages will appear in our lines ending with an "a" to designate them within our lines as averages.

3. Both sides of the trade that involves a max item will be used if another max item is used in the trade. Average pc with be used to caluculate the buyers price, and average price will be recorded as a confirmed trade for the one selling. This should increase the number of confirmed trades when using other maxed items in the trade keeping our average price as up to date as possible. Or we can continue to only use on side of the trade as we currently do.

4. Item will go in and out of using the designation of "b" "s" and the new "a" in the same manner we already have in place if an item goes over max or comes back into the ge.

5. Averages will still be approved by admins but will no longer need any discussion on them, simply a calculator.

Benefits

Consistency, we are not a flipping chat we are a price checking chat. Our pcs are simply a "starting point", the community decides what they want to trade the item for whether we give them this "extra" information or not.

Streamline our lines for those who actually still type the lines out like me

Move away from the drama of trying to establish a "flipping" range for these items instead of simply a "starting" point for items.

Completely do away with both the subjectivness "human element" of creating a flipping range and most of the accusations of us "manipulating" which is bogus. We work on confirmed trades and unconflicted prices, we are only as good as the information we get.

Respectufully Brad 76

14-Oct-2015 05:06:19 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 05:08:43 by Brad 76

Brad 76

Posts: 1,380 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Everyone that trades in these items often knows that "generally" speaking the more expensive the item the bigger the "margin" is for these items. If the concern is that without the "vital" "extra" information will leave people vulnerable to an unnecessary "big loss", I lost 140 million gp in 24hours in the last week on items that have a "mil +/-" margin or less normally.
When trading in these expensive items there is both great risk and great reward. If this information is "vital" then I'm simply making the point that we need to consider abandoning our core principle of being a pcing fc and go full on flipping fc.

We have never attempted to be completely accurate with our pcs, but give a "starting point", prices do change sometimes very often. All these items can have huge swings compared to their value (even the lowers sometimes peeling off or adding 10-15% or more of their value in just a few hours. We often say "prices change", we do not stand behind our pcs as accurate but only accurate with the information we have been given. I was not a part of these items being given a "range" but I can see clearly that creating what I refer to as a "flipping" range, is both inconsistent with our core mechanic of a being a pcing fc, creates unneeded drama and accusations, and no matter how you spin it "vital information" "necessary information" "added information" what we are simply doing is setting a "flipping range" for these items. If the direction of the fc in the long run is to be a flipping fc we simply have to stay on the course we are on now as we are moving in that direction at a very fast pace.

I realize that change is difficult, I also realize that talking about the "elephant in the room" will most likely cause my already huge fan club to expand

Sarcasm intended

Respectfully Brad 76

14-Oct-2015 05:26:20 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 05:48:20 by Brad 76

Oct

2014

Trips

Posts: 1,766 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Brad 76 said :

If a range is the most accurate method, then why would a range for a lower be inaccurate? If it makes the Partyhats more accurate, please tell me how a pc of Green ween for example at 105s - 105.9b wouldn't be more accurate than the last trade at 105.7b which for example is the last update given but within the last three hours pcs in between 105 and 105.9 have been given. If the range information makes the partyhats more accurate then please explain how it wouldn't make the lowers more accurate?

I think a range for lowers would be more inaccurate because usually when one end gets updated, the other end changes rather quickly while going unreported.

Think of a rise of an item, say wreaths. If there was a range of 372s-373b and someone insta bought a few, the new range might be, say 372s-378b but this range would be misleading because people most likely would have already put new offers in at 373+. People asking for the pc would see 372s and put offers around there that would never fill.

We try not to give ranges for everything because they become outdated and wrong too quickly. See NaS pcing. For items over max cash its reasonable to give a range because it represents the general price guideline of the past few days/week.

Veteran street traders rarely use the quark ranges to buy low, and sell high. They can get their stuff low and sell for more regardless on what the price is. This however isn't the case for items in the ge. We allow the people to make their own margins so that they aren't ever forced to think an item has to be within an x-x range. Although having the most recent pc is misleading, have a range would be double trouble.

This post has no relation to one number averages, just as to why we don't have ge ranges.

14-Oct-2015 05:42:59 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 05:47:51 by Trips

Brad 76

Posts: 1,380 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"I think a range for lowers would be more inaccurate because usually when one end gets updated, the other end changes rather quickly while going unreported.

Think of a rise of an item, say wreaths. If there was a range of 372s-373b and someone insta bought a few, the new range might be, say 372s-378b but this range would be misleading because people most likely would have already put new offers in at 373+. People asking for the pc would see 372s and put offers around there that would never fill. "

So which end of the "range items" range is inaccurate in a rise, the lower just like it would be on a rise of a ge item correct?

Creating a range is inherently "inaccurate" as you've just stated above ^

The elephant in the room is that once an item leaves the ge its traded less often in general because of the hassle of street trading and the potential for being scammed. That's why the overall arc of these items have gone way up, it's simple supply and demand. These items are hoarded on a larger scale because of the "huge" loss that comes by cashing them out, compared to finding a buyer. Any range that we create for any item is inherently inaccurate, as it can become "outdated" as soon as we create it, that is the reason we don't give a range on lowers and should be considered the same reason for not having a range on any items.

14-Oct-2015 05:51:41 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 06:01:17 by Brad 76

Oct

2014

Trips

Posts: 1,766 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Ferenc2017 said :
With all the hats in range it's time to change the update rules.

Currently range updates take way too long.

I suggest updating it every 5 trades and remove the need of an admin. Every rank should be allowed to do this.

Let's keep the prices fresh and correct.

In regards to this many ranks have a certain opinion on which direction to have a range be. Based on future market trends or buying/selling hats they tend to want to put more emphasis on one end or the other or push it 10-15m higher/lower than the trades dictate.

I'd be fine with having more people being able to update, but many have proven to be 'unstable' while trying to make consistent unbiased ranges.

14-Oct-2015 05:52:03

Oct

2014

Trips

Posts: 1,766 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Brad 76 said :

So which end of the "range items" range is inaccurate in a rise, the lower just like it would be on a rise of a ge item correct?

Creating a range is inherently "inaccurate" as you've just stated above ^

Ranges are inaccurate the instant they are made. They reflect the last batch of trades and have no relation to future trades. I see how you are trying to relate this to ge stuff, but trading on the street is different because you can visibly see people's offers and can see there are varying highs and lows you can have. In the ge there is an absolute max/min price that you can't go around but is changing all the time. We can't see how the incompletes changed to make a new range, but we can see how street offers have changed.

Sorry if that didn't make sense or answer your question. It's hard to put in words what thought went on in my head.

14-Oct-2015 06:02:50

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R Quark (Rare Quark) FC / CC