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Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
The Grouping system was meant to achieve this, but it doesn't work (at least not for the majority of Minigame usage), for the simple reasons:

1) It doesn't allow you choice.
- You can't choose from a list of existing groups, and groups can't specify whether they are for play, AFK, new-player-friendly, or private. This is the key thing that makes it impossible for existing Minigame groups to use, without, and makes it unwieldy, and hostile to random players trying it out; it would be far better just to have a directory of existing Friends' Chats, even a basic one.

2) It's not easy to find, and you're not prompted to look for it, or use it, anywhere (not surprising, given how bad a system it is, for most things.. the majority of usage appears to be for the free teleports to places).

All it did, was create a period after release, where groups were in flux, due to trying to accommodate it, and cut off from new players, thus increased their atrophy rates (tipping some over into being unsustainable).

I think you hit the nail on the head. “You can’t choose from a list of existing groups”. It makes the assumption that you already have a group of interested players assembled and serves no other purpose than to teleport them to the location when everyone readies up. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of FINDING a team doesn’t it?

“...specify whether they are for play, AFK, new-player-friendly, or private”. I like the way you put that. Also, I didn’t include private groups/games I’ll adjust accordingly.

“...and you’re not prompted to look for it, or use it, anywhere...” That’s a very good point. When should the player be prompted to use it? Upon entering the Minigame Hub? When in a waiting area? Definitely there should be some sort of prompt but I wonder where? Under what circumstances? Thoughts?

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 16:33:12

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
Frankly, there's not much worry that they're going to make them OP (though they should make it so that playing very well, gets very good xp, where that's applicable, as playing Minigame well, is a lot harder than skilling well, in almost all circumstances).

If you look at GOP, they could increase the xp from it by up to 130x the current xp given (so 260x the base xp rate), before it would rival (note: rival, not be better than - and this is only for people reasonably skilled at the game.. it'd need to be much higher for most players, likely more than double 130) the best skilling methods.

130x!

It's no wonder people don't think it's viable..
Give people at least a reason to not have every moment spent there feel like they're wasting valuable time that they could spend on progressing in the rest of the game (something that is hammered into players at virtually every opportunity).

Then, maybe, people may feel permitted to stick around when they enjoy the content; rewards would help that, and the xp rate could be lower than a 13,000% increase, to facilitate adding some great rewards - but the xp should be increased substantially, regardless.

There seems to be a certain amount of hysteria around “OP” content but nobody seem to complain when it comes out lol. As a result minigames are often lackluster for fear of being OP. Not to downplay power creep, but it is also because of power creep that minigame rewards/xp are obsolete. Once upon a time Stealing Creation was some of the best xp in the game. Now look at it. It’s only efficient when using the Fast SC chat.

My thinking is, minigames are supposed to be accessible to player of all levels and of diverse statuses.

Two thoughts:
1. What if XP was scaled by level? Thus it can be rewarding for all levels and statuses.
2. Implement a weekly cap. Make them reward very competitive xp but with a cap as not to draw away from other content

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 16:44:54

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
A way to combat this, would be to have several drop tables, each requiring a certain number of points to be gained in a match/round, in order to access (each drop table could have 2 unlock levels - one that unlocks access to it for that round, and a much higher level, than unlocks it permanently; that is just an option, it may be best to only have the temporary access option, unless the targets really are challenging - perhaps you could unlock the ability to access it at a slightly lower score).

The basic idea is to ensure that effort must be put in, to access more desirable rewards, and a lot of effort and skill is required for access to the top tier of rewards, while AFKing won't get you any rewards.

This was more or less my intention. Gain X amount of points to be eligible for the drop table and that percentage chance is increased the more points you get beyond that. Looking back now I didn’t express that clearly. Will be rewording a few things in my thread.

But different tiers of drops is an interesting idea. The more effort you put it, the better the rewards! Will be adding this.

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 16:49:23

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
....they have an awful habit of appearing as rewards for other new content, or TH

This always get my blood boiling, I actually have had some experiences with this. Thanks, Jagex. Having it appear in other content isn’t so bad...but Treaure Hunter

. The problem is, if I don’t post them they will never be considered but if I do there’s a good chance they become TH promos. Lose if I do, lose if I don’t. *shrugs*

Yusou Bhoroi said :
They should definitely have top tier weapons/armour at least require a component from minigames.

I actually have a few things cooking in this regard. High end tiers are pretty empty at the moment and have a lot of room for added diversity.

They’re pretty good if I don’t say so myself.

Armour/weapon patches and additions would be a great route to take. Like a very rare patch that makes Darklight as good as it was pre-nerf.

Ripper claws could use one. They just barely missed the mark to being useful. Drygores are better even when your opponent is below 50% health. A patch that makes them better than Drygores when your opponent is beneath 50% health would make them a niche and very valuable switch.

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 17:04:36

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
*That ensures that each Minigame is being played by someone , and people who like it have a reason to play it, instead of some getting left out.

That’s key.

Yusou Bhoroi said :
The idea of 10% damage reduction from certain monsters is good, but they should scale future monsters to be near-impossible to do without having these things, so that there is actually a reason to have them, rather than it being more of a cost-effort-reward balance, where people can get away without ever getting them. If they are tradable, then it isn't forcing people to play things they don't want to (though there should be at least one required item, that is non-tradable, for each Minigame, so that people at least try them out, before deciding they don't like them...

That’s an interesting idea. So effectively we’re locking certain bosses behind and item (at least to do it effectively). Giving them incentive the play the game and further said boss/monster will remain relatively lucrative because of that wall. If I’m understanding you correctly,

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 17:10:43

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Yusou Bhoroi said :
There really need to be more rune sinks, before they can add more rune-saving items, as many runes struggle to maintain prices, or are well below their shop-value, we should be careful not to undermine other content (like skilling for GP), when updating Miningames.

I’m actually okay with runes being cheap. Perhaps we just disagree on a very basic level on this but I don’t enjoy worrying about runes and cost. I’d like to use ancients but I almost never do also because of cost.

I’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Yusou Bhoroi said :
The Warpriest to F2P is good, though I think maybe the T75 version (upgrade, once you own a set, from FOG) should be gained from GWD, so as not to undermine that. You'd have to get the set from FOG, in order to make use of the upgrade.

I’d argue that there’s other reasons to go to GWD but none to go to FOG and therefore wouldn’t undermine it. It got along just fine before warpriest was added as a drop. I see your point though. But that’s just me. I’m not against it or for it.

Yusou Bhoroi said :
It would be interesting if they had powerful items, with niche uses (combat included), that only existed in a limited number - <5 in the game, per item, that could only be obtained by being the highest scorer in a Miningame (holding the World Record).
I don’t think this would be popular among players as they wouldn’t appreciate an unfair advantage given to just a few players that likely many of them will never achieve. Maybe something to test the waters? See players’ reactions? I feel like it would be either very successful or cause an uproar.

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 17:20:06

Gwyndolynn

Posts: 1,317 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Also, I apologize for the rewards sections. They’re a mess I know. There are dozens of old ones I need to weed out and some embarrassing typos as you’ve noticed.

Yusou Bhoroi said :
If they could make run energy decrease as much as it used to, then a lot of options would open for run-prolonging items (as well as it making Agility more useful, again); I believe they made a massive mistake, when they changed the recharge rates so drastically, it was a key element of the game, and gave it something unique.

Yeah, at this point they might as well have removed run energy entirely for all the good it does. It made a lot of room for other unique agility items too which is a pity.

Thanks for the discourse Yusou! You’ve given me a lot to think about and even more to revise. Ugh!

I’ll try and tackle those changes later.

REIGN OF JUDGES:

Title of Liberty

Minigame Autopsy V3
Wilderness Autopsy V1

15-Aug-2018 17:27:19

Yusou Bhoroi

Posts: 8,551 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Gwyndolynn said :
Yusou Bhoroi said :
So, in conclusion: very unlike he Great Orb Project's activity meter. I support the idea, though. : p

I’ll concede the point, lol. I suppose I was highlighting the concept and not the execution. And perhaps there isn’t a perfect ‘activity meter’ but it’ll be a start. Even better would be to give them a reason to want to play. Perhaps with the way I suggested implementing the drop mechanic, this would solve itself? You have to attain a high enough score to be eligible for a drop and surplus points further increases your chances. (Insert my boosting solutions).

Maybe it would be necessary to make Thaler award based on score? Eh, but no. I think the drop mechanic would be incentive enough. Yes? No? Maybe?

Understandable, and yes the concept of requiring activity to gain things is a good one - I very much support that! (It is in your original wording, I was just highlighting the unfortunate use of that one as an example, as it could lead to misinterpretation of the intent, given that one is ineffective in practice, unlike the proposals you make for future things).

It would be nice if the drop mechanic was enough - it should make some impact, it's just that as long as Thaler is around (in its current form), then people will be using it to trim (a large section of people), and they'll be able to do that while AFKing, likely not minding whether they get other rewards, due to Trimming being their goal.

Unless trimming it made significantly faster to gain while not-afking, than when afking (it would likely need to be in the region of 5x as fast with normal effort, than without effort), then a large enough chunk of people will afk for it, large enough that they impact on gameplay, and possible enjoyment, thus causing those who were borderline to afk also.. which then leads to an escalation of afking, again.

16-Aug-2018 03:41:53

Yusou Bhoroi

Posts: 8,551 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Now, Trimming is already fast enough (the Minigame part is something like 8x faster than it was, at its hardest - it was changed from the cape, to profound armour, and that was halved, and then thaler reduced it even more, especially if only playing CastleWars, and only during the CWs spotlight; enhancers, and double point days, also reduce it), making it faster would just be ridiculous (especially as thaler is gained passively) - people wouldn't even have to spend enough time in any Minigames to figure out how they actually work, let alone develop a liking to any particular Minigame.

..and this is where the issue lies.. JAGEX will never increase the effort/time it takes to get that part of Trim. The best solution would be to increase the cost of Profound (and other thaler items), but make it so that thaler could be gained faster through participation; however, they veer strongly away from that concept, and would only go for making it even easier to get.

In that scenario, there would have to be rewards that would take a substantial amount of time to obtain, from individual Minigames (each only obtainable from one Minigame), to make up for any deficit in time spent in them.

It's the same basic argument against making rewards cheaper - you're reducing the amount of time people spend being rewarded in the content, to below that which is required for them to grasp how the game really works, what it's really about, and to fully form an opinion over whether they like it or not; this is especially so, when it's not guaranteed that they'll even experience playing, in most of their games (currently, even for Minigames which have their own, unique rewards, that can't be bought through thaler, most will obtain all of them, and pass out of the content before they've ever experienced actually using it, so they either have no idea whether they like it, or they dislike it due to the wasted/boring AFK-time; they have no reason to ever return, and will spread bad word about it).

16-Aug-2018 03:58:23

Yusou Bhoroi

Posts: 8,551 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Gwyndolynn said :
Yusou Bhoroi said :
Snipped for lenght - can click the thing to see in full.

I think you hit the nail on the head. “You can’t choose from a list of existing groups”. It makes the assumption that you already have a group of interested players assembled and serves no other purpose than to teleport them to the location when everyone readies up. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of FINDING a team doesn’t it?

“...specify whether they are for play, AFK, new-player-friendly, or private”. I like the way you put that. Also, I didn’t include private groups/games I’ll adjust accordingly.

“...and you’re not prompted to look for it, or use it, anywhere...” That’s a very good point. When should the player be prompted to use it? Upon entering the Minigame Hub? When in a waiting area? Definitely there should be some sort of prompt but I wonder where? Under what circumstances? Thoughts?

Paragraph 1: Indeed, they never seem to think things through, even when it's explained to them at every stage of development - the only conclusion is that it was never intended to do what they said the update was intended to do.

Paragraph 3: It really depends on what other updates they do, and whether they fix it.. (not really a good idea to encourage people to use it as it is.. it'll just cause more problems.
I'd suggest that there's at least a mention of it in the early path-system, that they're currently using for new accounts, and that there's a more detailed tutorial of it, the first time a player interacts with Minigame content; after that, a brief reminder hint/popup, the first time they interact with each individual Minigame - that way people are unlikely to forget it, and more likely to make use of it (of course, this is provisional on their changing it to be a useful system, as there's no point with it in the current version).

16-Aug-2018 04:06:43

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