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Damion Avah
Dec Member 2014

Damion Avah

Posts: 583 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
After reviewing the proposal and considering the benefits and problems that will come from this, I personally have concluded that there would be some problems in the proposal. The costs of making one are justifiable, but the problem I personally have found is not so much the mechanics of it, but more of the history of several of the coastal claims along with the terrain of others. Current ports are port towns and have a local economy to them, also some of these claims it just would not make sense that a port be there. Yes, the debate can be made that we could build anywhere, and the issue with that is it would allow that argument to almost anything. I would also like to note my concern of the elimination of strategy behind ports that would over time go away, because long term eventually there would be so many ports available on the map as there aren't any restrictions on them either. Based on these reasons, the Wushanko Empire must unfortunately
vote no
to the proposal unless further arguments persuade us otherwise.
~~† Emperor of the The Menaphite Empire †~~

~~~Search for the laws of harmony, and you will find knowledge~~~

---

06-Feb-2017 00:12:49

Astrazak
Apr Member 2020

Astrazak

Posts: 1,026 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
On the current proposal for ports:

I'm speaking for myself here, not as the leader of TSV. I don't like the idea of building ports on coastal claims for a lot of the reasons Danny has pointed out. Firstly, the lore aspect is a biggie ... there are already settlements that are centered around their ports such as Port Sarim & Catherby; if we arbitrarily added more ports around the world, it would be inconsistent with some lore.

Next, having the ability to build ports anywhere eliminates the existing strategy current ports maintain. Why plan to claim areas like Port Sarim or Catherby when you could simply build a port on any coastal claim? A lot of these port towns are lower in tier that bigger cities and what they sacrifice in revenue, they make up for in strategy.

Finally, there are several problems with this idea that could easily be abused.

a) If a coastal claim now has a port, does that mean it could be invaded by a different clan like the existing ports? If so, then a clan could invade little areas like Frankenstrain's Castle, etc. Then a larger invasion could be mounted from there, which to me, doesn't seem very realistic. How can a force large enough to conquer all of Morytania be housed in that tiny Castle for example.

b) In the end-game of the community, (which we've seen several times), this will just be plain op. Eventually, clans get to the point where they can make a port once a week, or at worst, once every other week. There would be so many ports (given the benefit of owning several), that all strategy would be lost.

I'm sure there are more that haven't hit me yet.

06-Feb-2017 00:50:41

Muren

Muren

Posts: 2,530 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"Current ports are port towns and have a local economy to them, also some of these claims it just would not make sense that a port be there. Yes, the debate can be made that we could build anywhere, and the issue with that is it would allow that argument to almost anything."

It makes sense for any coastal city or town to have a port. Sure, there are some coastal claims for which it wouldn't make sense, but that's because they're not towns or cities. Epic has been working on a revised territory tier system in which towns and cities have their own separate tiers. I would be perfectly fine with restricting port building to coastal towns and cities, as it makes perfect sense for people to restrict their port building to those things. To not do so would be unrealistic, and would allow us to build a port in the Hunting Grounds. That would be ridiculous.


"I would also like to note my concern of the elimination of strategy behind ports that would over time go away, because long term eventually there would be so many ports available on the map as there aren't any restrictions on them either."

In response to this I reiterate my proposed restrictions. But also, keep in mind that these are resource-expensive building projects. If we're being realistic here, it wouldn't be abused, it would rarely be used at all. And when it would be used, it would be because they needed a port so badly that the exchange is equitable, in which case they should have that option, no?

Ports are not so useful that people would put themselves at a severe disadvantage of economic growth to spam-build them all over the place. Especially not when they can simply claim an existing port for much cheaper, and with the benefit of increasing their gold income. Think honestly about how far frivolously building ports under the proposed costs would set you back in the economic competition with other clans, and how little benefit that would actually provide.
~~~
Bondweaver
of
The Fremennik Tribes
~~~
Be water, my friend.
~~~

06-Feb-2017 02:53:09

Muren

Muren

Posts: 2,530 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"Firstly, the lore aspect is a biggie ... there are already settlements that are centered around their ports such as Port Sarim & Catherby; if we arbitrarily added more ports around the world, it would be inconsistent with some lore."

Within the restrictions I proposed in my previous comment, I see no inconsistency to be found in building new ports.


"Next, having the ability to build ports anywhere eliminates the existing strategy current ports maintain. Why plan to claim areas like Port Sarim or Catherby when you could simply build a port on any coastal claim? A lot of these port towns are lower in tier that bigger cities and what they sacrifice in revenue, they make up for in strategy."

I'm sorry, but ports simply don't have the utility they would have to for this argument to hold weight. They don't provide a great amount of strategic value. Some, yes, but it's not terribly great. Most of the strategic value of having ports is gained by having a single port. Why set yourself back 40W 20O 10X and 100k if you could simply claim areas like Port Sarim or Catherby for much cheaper, and get a boost to your gold income and resource collection in doing so? It's plain to see that claiming an existing port, if you can, would be drastically more preferable to building one -- and if you can't claim an existing one (a situation like the one TSV would be in if Menaphos hadn't been made a port), I think you should have the opportunity to build one yourself.


"a) If a coastal claim now has a port, does that mean it could be invaded by a different clan like the existing ports? If so, then a clan could invade little areas like Frankenstrain's Castle, etc."

Yes, and I would reiterate my proposed tier restrictions to resolve this.


"Then a larger invasion could be mounted from there, which to me, doesn't seem very realistic. How can a force large enough to conquer all of Morytania be housed in that tiny Castle for example."

Who says they all come at once? O_o
~~~
Bondweaver
of
The Fremennik Tribes
~~~
Be water, my friend.
~~~

06-Feb-2017 03:08:12

Muren

Muren

Posts: 2,530 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The Fremennik Tribes would like to use their "free ship" coupon to build the Njörðr in the port of Rellekka. Then, we would like to trade with the Silver Vigil.

=+=Trade Agreement =+=
POCs that are trading: The Fremennik Tribes and The Silver Vigil
First POC is giving: (TFT) 15 wood and 7 fish
Second POC is giving: (TSV) 11k
Specify Trade Route: By sea, sailing the Njörðr
Signatures: Syne

When that is accepted, we would like to claim the Lunar Isle.

=+= Land Claim =+=
Clan: The Fremennik Tribes
Land: Lunar Island - Port [1W, 5O, 2R]
Access to Land: Travel by ship.

And finally, we would like to Feed the People of the Lunar Isle (23F - 10F = 13F) to bring our Ore collection for this week to 11 (we should have 28 Ore after the tick).


This past week has been especially busy and fruitful for the people of Rellekka. Their new ship - the first truly seafaring vessel to be built since the Varangians' claiming of Rellekka - has recently returned from its maiden voyage. The Njörðr, as the people of Rellekka have named it, was taken out to sea in a long voyage toward the desert city of Menaphos to do trade with the Easterlings of that region. On its return voyage, bearing a bounty of gold, it also made an unplanned detour toward the Lunar Isle to trade with our long-separated kin. This went marvelously from what I heard, surprisingly so considering the historical strife between the Moonclan and the other Fremennik Tribes. The Moonclan have actually welcomed the traders of Rellekka to consider the Lunar Isle a regular stop on their trade routes. It truly does warm the heart to see two peoples with such a history come together in shared interests for the betterment of all. This is how scorched bridges are rebuilt. How fortunate I am to be born to the generation who is laying the mortar.
~~~
Bondweaver
of
The Fremennik Tribes
~~~
Be water, my friend.
~~~

06-Feb-2017 03:30:44 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2017 15:38:34 by Muren

3randon
Jul Member 2023

3randon

Posts: 913 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Muren said :
=+=Trade Agreement =+=
POCs that are trading: The Fremennik Tribes and The Silver Vigil
First POC is giving: (TFT) 15 wood and 7 fish
Second POC is giving: (TSV) 11k
Specify Trade Route: By sea, sailing the Njörðr
Signatures: Syne

Signature: Harbinger 3randon the Benevalant

.[/i]
Learn to use logic and reason, it will serve you better than Pride or Vanity
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

06-Feb-2017 03:35:00

Damion Avah
Dec Member 2014

Damion Avah

Posts: 583 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Without the Tier Revision, I still see problems here and there in which our vote will remain no if the Tier Revision is not passed. If the Tier revision is passed, I see many of concerns resolved since it would essentially be restricted to certain claims. If the Tier Revision is passed, then our Vote will be Yes to the proposal.

TL: DR
Claim revision not passed, vote no to proposal
Claim revision passed, vote yes to proposal
~~† Emperor of the The Menaphite Empire †~~

~~~Search for the laws of harmony, and you will find knowledge~~~

---

06-Feb-2017 03:54:10 - Last edited on 06-Feb-2017 03:54:19 by Damion Avah

3randon
Jul Member 2023

3randon

Posts: 913 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
=+=Trade Agreement =+= Wushanko Empire and The Silver Vigil
POCs that are trading: TSV is sending 13 ore
First POC is giving: WE is giving 15 wood and 3 flax
Specify Trade Route: By sea, sailing the Harmony's Tide from Sophanem to Wakio

Signature: Harbinger 3randon the Benevolant

Signature:
Learn to use logic and reason, it will serve you better than Pride or Vanity
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

06-Feb-2017 04:05:12

Damion Avah
Dec Member 2014

Damion Avah

Posts: 583 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
3randon said :
=+=Trade Agreement =+= Wushanko Empire and The Silver Vigil
POCs that are trading: TSV is sending 13 ore
First POC is giving: WE is giving 15 wood and 3 flax
Specify Trade Route: By sea, sailing the Harmony's Tide from Sophanem to Wakio

Signature: Harbinger 3randon the Benevolant

Signature: Khagan Dan of the Arc
~~† Emperor of the The Menaphite Empire †~~

~~~Search for the laws of harmony, and you will find knowledge~~~

---

06-Feb-2017 04:20:15

Travis Thorn

Travis Thorn

Posts: 751 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I am still on the fence with the buildable ports mechanically. In terms of realism I agree with Jor that it makes sense however as a community mechanic I find it lacking. Using KOI as an example I would not want to build a port. With limited access to the elven lands we are able to build up more defences why make another point of entry. The only benefit I can see is for clans that lack ports such as the desert as Yami stated how soph is a port only because it was decided long ago that it was needed. Making it so tsv can build a port rather then rely on a little known motion passed long ago makes sense to me.

Forgive me if I am out of date on any changes made on the proposal on discord (quite a lot of messages to go through first thing in the morning) but I saw something about making it only for raids not wars. That seems pointless too.. Treasure from raids would need to make its way back to the capital to be used. If WE raided KOI i should have the opportunity to attack his ships rather then them able to hide in a closer port and my lost goods teleported to Waiko. It goes along with the trade system. Forgive me if I am wrong but if TFT traded with TSV do you not need to wait a week to use those resources (to give other clans the chance to attack the ships if they desire)?
Sir Travis 2
,
Grand Elder and Leader of the
Kingdom of Isafdar

06-Feb-2017 14:02:12

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