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Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Posts: 2,512 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Well then, in a non-argumentative way, I'd have to say that I disagree with virtually all that you say in your post.

1. My idea of fun combat is one where you get to DO things, with strategy that varies between each different boss/player. When I was doing While Guthix Sleeps, I found it INCREDIBLY anti-climatic that when I fought the balance elemental, I actually had to just step back and watch my character fight, because my special was all used up and my blood spells were preventing the need for food. I find it dull that virtually every quest boss battle either starts with my unloading my whole special bar on a monster, or passes without me using special at all. It would be so much more exciting if I got to use strategical combos on my enemies. Same goes for slayer training - YAWN. Its dull because all I do is click on my target, and maybe click again to eat. I'd be more stimulated if I had to think when I fought.

Now I don't PK and I expect most of your argument has come from that point of view. You say it's unfair because you can't predict what your opponent is about to do - well I'm pretty sure I could make myself an unpredictable PKer right now if I wanted to - I could walk around pretending I've only brought a dragon dagger with me in the wilderness and then pull out some dragon claws when someone thinks they've found easy pickings. Even with these updates, its not unfair on anyone - because both players would have the chance to use these abilities.

Now to tear your point about logic apart...
I don't know if you've noticed, but Runescape kinda lacks logic, particularly when it comes to the inventory. You can carry a cannon twice your size around in a backpack so small it cant be seen on you, for gods sake! You can switch weapons instantly, with no time for sheathing etc. There is no logic here
You can already carry many many more weapons than you can visibly brandish in Runescape, you just don't have the incentive to

03-Apr-2011 20:54:14

Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Posts: 2,512 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
... Your point about Runescape not supporting secondary weapons is also, in my opinion, wrong. I've seen many people in soul wars use D-Claws for a special attack then switch back to a Godsword. Doesn't that technically make the claws a secondary?

Finally, you say without limitations and controls there would be a fixed "strongest" combination.
Well firstly, did you not read the various limitations and controls I proposed. Cooldowns, finite limits on the amount of special, level requirements... Limitations are never really very hard to find
Secondly, the beautiful thing about Runescape is that there never is a "strongest" combination. Different things work better in different situations, and whether a combination is the best for you also depends on what your levels are, what side of the triangle you're using etc. Yes, some combinations would be better than others, and the price mechanism would make the components of these combos cost more, but well, thats just another limitation really.

Seriously. What I proposed wasn't a massive increase in special attack points. It was only gonna be somewhere between double or triple what you have now. Combat wouldn't be a long series of weapon hops and special attacks, it would just have a few more in it...

03-Apr-2011 21:00:49 - Last edited on 03-Apr-2011 21:10:28 by Slayer Noir

3mptylord
Jul Member 2023

3mptylord

Posts: 35,751 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Fair play.

RE: "Now I don't PK..."
For starters, I don't PVP. But yes, most of my concerns surround PVP. Why? Because player-vs-player is where balance issues arise. A good update should be compatible with PVP, rather than simply restricting it from PVP to save on the effort.

However, I agree with you on the principle "because both players would have the chance to use these abilities"... this is one of the reasons I hate extreme prayers, and how Summoning is handled in combat (or rather, not handled in most circumstances). But I'm thinking we're using it differently. I only agree on that principle with respect to skill-based commodities - most of combat is, by contrast, monetary-based.

RE: "My idea of fun combat..."
The interactivity of combat should not be fixed by switching between weapons. That is a very POOR solution. As only RICH players will fully appreciate it. Switching attacks is a good solution to this. However, the special attack should remain keyed to it's name: special. Using special attacks shouldn't become standard combat.

RE: "RuneScape kinda lacks logic..."
I'm not foreign to the concept of hammerspace and the magic satchel.

03-Apr-2011 22:08:06 - Last edited on 03-Apr-2011 22:13:24 by 3mptylord

3mptylord
Jul Member 2023

3mptylord

Posts: 35,751 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
If what you want is less autonomous combat, how about this;

Combat Panel would receive a makeover.
- 1) All weapons would be given a variety of "abilities".
- - - i) Some attacks might be akin to existing special attacks.
- - - ii) These would appear at the top of the combat panel.
- - a) When activated, abilities can be next attack or effect a period of time.
- - b) Abilities will have cool-downs that apply when first-equip and between uses.
- - - i) Prevents abuse via weapon-hoping.
- - c) Abilities reward relevant experience when used.

- 2) All weapons would be given a default number of augment slots.
- - - i) These would appear beneath the abilities.
- - - ii) Between none and two depending on the level/class of the item.
- - a) Augment slots are shaped as are the augments.
- - - i) Compatible augments only.
- - b) Augments are found in weapons, as drops or as rewards.
- - - i) Some augments are "bound" to their weapon and cannot be removed.
- - c) Weapons cannot be traded whilst custom-augmented (remove then trade).
- - d) Custom augments will be dropped as separate items when weapon is dropped.
- - - i) Non-tradeable augments won't be visible to other players.
- - e) Weapons lose one augment slots when dropped/traded.
- - - i) Only happens once.
- - - i1) This can remove all available slots (and any bound augments, if applicable).
- - - ii1) This would ideally not affect players who die then retrieve it.
- - g) Augments act as additional abilities.
- - - i) Active (next attack) and/or passive (indefinitely).
- - - i) Most "set effects" are passive augment abilities.

- 3) Weapons will have a single default attack.
- - a) Core default attack types are assertive, aggressive and/or defensive.
- - b) Some pures may find their choice of weapon no longer a viable choice.
- - - i) As a dagger cannot provide strength experience via it's default attack, for example.

03-Apr-2011 22:13:14 - Last edited on 03-Apr-2011 23:24:34 by 3mptylord

3mptylord
Jul Member 2023

3mptylord

Posts: 35,751 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Dragon Dagger
Requirement: 60 Attack
Augment Slots: 3
- Puncture (Bound) — Hits twice with increased accuracy and strength. (active)(5 sec)(att + str xp)
- Free (Triangle)
Abilities:
- Assertive — Basic attack. (default)(att xp)
- Aggressive — Hits with increase strength. (3 sec)(str xp)
- Defensive — Increased defence for 5 seconds. (10 sec)(def xp)

Possible custom augments;
• Frenzy (Triangle) — Increases weapon speed by 2 for 10 seconds. (active)(30 sec)
* Dragon's Rage (Triangle) — Increased attack. (passive)
• Dragon's Eye (Ellipse) - Increased attack ranged. (passive)

Dragon's Eye is, for example, not compatible with the Dragon Dagger. When traded, the Dragon Dagger would lose it's Triangle slot. Hexagonal augments are some of the rarest, thus, it's harder to populate.

An NPC could add augment slots, or alter the shape, for a price. But this probably isn't needed.

Poison would be an agument. Augments could even be made by Herblore, to replace weapon-poison (or poisoning a weapon would create an augment, or add an additional step to the process).

Circle - Shortbows
Ellipse - Longbows
Triangle - Daggers and Shortswords
Square - Longswords, Scimitars and Maces.
Rectangle - Hammers, Battleaxes and Broadswords
Pentagon - Staves

Bound augments could be a fixed shape, say, hexagon, to make it easier to identify that it's a bound augment.

I think I'mma do some concept art, I'll upload it to the Clan's forum and/or my DeviantART page.

03-Apr-2011 23:24:05 - Last edited on 03-Apr-2011 23:26:13 by 3mptylord

3mptylord
Jul Member 2023

3mptylord

Posts: 35,751 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Uploaded. :)

It makes combat more interactive, allows more frequent use of special attacks (by completely removing the special attack bar), awards players who acquire items themselves (rather than buying), handles weapon-hopping abuse without preventing weapon-hopping and urr... I don't know.

04-Apr-2011 01:08:48

Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Posts: 2,512 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Ok, so I'm reading through everything you've posted here and on the suggestion site (which took a while to find, by the way) and I've gotta say, that overall your system seems to work. (My only criticism being that you've forgotten to credit my part in its development :P ) But thats not a problem, because I plan on doing much more to gain credit. I'm really with you on this one.

Troubleshooting a few points
1. The idea of slots being lost when traded. It seems kinda punishing to me... I can see the positives; Its an incentive to train slayer and smithing and similar, re-adding value to these parts of the game. But it also seems to punish people who trade weapons. Also, can Runescape's coding handle that? I'm no expert... Perhaps you'd like to consider augments being untradable
2.i. Similar effects already present in-game. Poison first. Putting it in the triangle slot seems to me like it would turn poison into unused content - compared to some of your other triangle examples, it seems pretty weak. Plus that causes you to allow poisoning on shortswords. While that finds a use for them, doesn't it shift their uselessness straight onto daggers? Just have a separate augment slot for poison - surely that would make everyone's life easier.
ii. Noticed a remarkable similarity between possible add-ons to shields and the sigils which you attach to spirit shields? To preserve spirit shields as they are, I think you should make another unique slot (which isn't lost by trading) on blessed shields that can only be filled by these sigils, which would become part of the whole augment scheme

04-Apr-2011 17:21:34

Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Posts: 2,512 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
iii. The longbow sight from dungeoneering. That kinda screams ellipse augment at me... Doesn't really need any complex system to incorporate it into the system either - in fact, I like the idea that your system would allow it to be attached to any longbow. I thought it was stupid that it could only ever be used on maple and magic longbows anyway...

Those three points would make a good case for introducing this into Runescape, by the way. It makes the whole thing a lot harder to criticise when you can turn around and say "well something similar has been in Runescape here, here and here for a long time..."

3. The loss of control over what XP you get. Its hard enough training strength with a whip as it is :( . Plus many weapons have been designed with having multiple attack styles in mind. All weapons need to retain their attack styles for this idea to be accepted by the community at large. I've had a look at the interface you've suggested and I think this could be done with a right click option on the bit that tells you your style (to the right of where it says "Staff of air" and "combat level 91&quot ;) . I really really don't like the idea of all weapons having a single default attack style. That actually takes a lot of strategy out of the game, which entirely goes against what we're trying to achieve, in my opinion

4. Weapons currently with no special. I may have overlooked you talking about this, but do you plan on adding this system to ALL weapons to some degree, or just weapons that currently have a special? Just want clarification on that one

5. Unique weapons that don't (or shouldn't) fit into your system of classification. I'm thinking barrows weapons, Korasi's sword and the barrelchest anchor to name a few. What do you plan on doing to them? Just go through case by case? Or fit them all into a catagory?

Other than that, I give this idea two thumbs up. I'd like to start thinking of augments, if thats ok with you?

04-Apr-2011 17:25:00 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2011 17:32:23 by Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Slayer Noir

Posts: 2,512 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Sorry for a third post in a row, but I actually do need all this space...

Having read through your post on the suggestion site right down to the bottom, it does seem a few of the things I've picked up on were also picked up on there - mainly the point on the loss of attack styles. This Dark guy is right though, keeping different attack styles is an absolute must


On an unrelated topic... Have you seen the graphics around the clan camp area??? O M G
Please tell me we're setting up there :D

Those trees looks so so so good - can't wait til they're all over Runescape. And the NPCS... They have fingers! And unique stances. Pretty pleased about what that promises for the future :D

04-Apr-2011 17:46:07 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2011 17:56:14 by Slayer Noir

3mptylord
Jul Member 2023

3mptylord

Posts: 35,751 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Haha, Dark later said in our Facebook Group's chat that he agreed with the notion, but it would never go down well with the community as a whole. ;)

Of course we'll set-up. I'll make sure to do it personally while all you Americans are shleeping. ;)

Also, they've already updated the area? I thought that was coming on the 12th or 14th? :O

AMG! So pretty! :D

He says I need 5 friends to set up a clan, so I'm guessing we'll need to arrange something. :P

04-Apr-2011 21:23:35 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2011 22:43:12 by 3mptylord

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