forums.rs

Forums

Jcup - Mass Recruit Feedback

Quick find code: 86-87-611-65691552

of 5
AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

Posts: 4,793 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Performs said :
sorry I read thru it and can I have some backstory as to why the clan got removed?

Sure. We were removed from all the cups we were participating in this year (EOC fullout p2p, Legacy fullout p2p, EOC 20v20 p2p, EOC 20v20 f2p), because our opponent in "legacy fullout p2p" reported us for mass recruiting.

Summary of the timeline:
1. This specific opponent told us they were going to get us disqualified for this specific rule, long before the cup started. So in return we have been stressing out for months to figure out how to not break this rule.

2. We contacted Jagex (by email and through forums) before the cup started to ask for clarification on mass recruiting and to make sure they knew this clan was trying to get us disqualified instead of fighting us fair and square.

3. During cup, we completely stopped looking for new people and instead only invited people who were still waiting to get in (people on our warring team who weren't in clan yet, forum applicants, etc.). We used Blasty's clan logger and Runeclan to make sure we wouldn't overstep the 10/week limit, and as far as we can tell we didn't in any week. The only way we could have is if somehow 7 people joined on the same day they left, as the trackers wouldn't have picked them up then. Only 5 people had invite power during the cup, 2 of which where allowed to actually invite people without asking the other leaders (me and one other person).

4. We beat our Legacy fullout P2P opponent with a pull of ~ 76 vs 47 people (or something like that), and they proceeded to report us for mass recruiting as promised. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
Shuu Zone #1 Community Clan
°•›„¸¸¸¸¸
AngryAraxxor
|
38/46 Insane Final Boss
|
PvPer
PvMer
Community
man

11-Oct-2015 12:14:03 - Last edited on 11-Oct-2015 12:17:14 by AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

Posts: 4,793 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I should probably also mention that the clan I owned previously (Infernal Phoenix) was still in the process of merging into Divine Resilience, but Matthe confirmed this was OK and wouldn't count torwards the 10/week throttle. I was in charge of inviting the mergers, the other person took care of anyone else who still was waiting for an invite. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
Shuu Zone #1 Community Clan
°•›„¸¸¸¸¸
AngryAraxxor
|
38/46 Insane Final Boss
|
PvPer
PvMer
Community
man

11-Oct-2015 12:20:51 - Last edited on 11-Oct-2015 12:22:50 by AngryAraxxor

Calm Enigma

Calm Enigma

Forum Moderator Posts: 10,882 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
AngryAraxxor said :
4. Make clans post their member lists before the cup starts, so tracking isn't an issue at all i.e you can recruit as much as you want but new recruits can't enter cup matches

I used this as an example to illustrate part of the intent behind the mass-recruiting rule, but I don't think bringing back this rule would be an improvement to the Cup at all. Rather than making things more simple for clans, it would actually make them more likely to face disqualification due to the confusion of making sure that everyone warring was actually on the initial memberlist. Due to name changes, clans being less used to using memberlists and the difficulty of being completely on point with clan co-ordination, it is likely that many clans would end up with new members participating, either by oversight or by antagonistic clans sabotaging (yes that has happened...). The only way this could work now is if the Clan Cup RCW system was programmed to only let in players registered in the official memberlist. -
C.E.

Clam Enigma's evil twin | Council of the RS
W
arring League
-•¤{
Wicked
Fury
}¤•-

12-Oct-2015 10:32:45

Calm Enigma

Calm Enigma

Forum Moderator Posts: 10,882 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Subzero said :
There shouldn't be a rule against recruiting for the Clan Cup whatsoever. Rules should be simple black/white rules, and this is one rule that is too ambiguous, and too easily circumvented, for it to be enforceable.
This is correct, to an extent. However, there are cases where such rules should still be added and enforced due to their importance. For example, the No Flaming rule. That is probably one of the most black and white rule in the competition, but absolutely necessary to try and stop clans from behaving awfully. Mass-recruiting is also worthy of being a rule, despite not being black and white. If the mass-recruiting rule were not in place, the full-out section of the Cup would turn into a recruiting competition, rather than a PvP competition. Recruiting should be natural; removing the mass-recruiting rule would give clans the urge to go beyond their natural recruiting, seeking to steal members from other clans and perhaps even pushing some into merges - all just to build up numbers, rather than because those recruits genuinely prefer that clan. This not only affect the credibility of the JCup but also would also hurt social, skilling and other non-warring clans, who would be key targets for competing clans to snipe members from. Imo it's better to have a slightly subjective rule for the competition to fence off this possibilty. -
C.E.

Clam Enigma's evil twin | Council of the RS
W
arring League
-•¤{
Wicked
Fury
}¤•-

12-Oct-2015 10:38:20

Seer of War

Seer of War

Posts: 13,968 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
AngryAraxxor said :
Counter/closing words:

I can imagine some people would say the simplest solution to avoiding all of this would be: just don't invite anyone during the cup whatsoever! However, I believe that is a very elitist thing to say, as it excludes a lot of people who become curious about warring when the cup is announced, but aren't currently in a participating clan. As a friendly and open community clan focused on reviving the warring scene, Divine Resilience does not support the idea of completely closing the gates for those people (for up to 2 months+ of the year!), as it does nothing but hurt them and reinforce the idea of the warring community being elitist and narrow-minded.

Next to that, it doesn't make much sense to expect warring clans, which already aren't that popular among the community in general, to undergo a complete recruitment lockdown for 1/6 of the year, every year, only out of fear of being disqualified from the cup. So no, not inviting anyone at all isn't the way to go either as far as I'm concerned.


To be perfectly honest, I'm not up-to-date on the specifics of the clan cup recruitment policies. We personally maintain the same recruitment policy year round (although we also didn't sign up for PvP cup - not sure if this also applies to Skill or Boss Cups.)

However, this thread seems very reasonable and well thought out. It sounds as though your clan went to great lengths to avoid this outcome.I think the purpose of the clan cup is to get the community involved and participating. Best of luck!
Seer of War

Founder | The Order of War
2600+ Total Level International Tier 7 Citadel, PvM, and Skilling Clan Community

13-Oct-2015 02:14:24

Mod Matthe

Mod Matthe

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Not ignoring this - just buried under disputes, results and fixtures. As soon as I get chance I will look to address some of the points and discussion in this thread but it is something that needs a long reply, not a quick trying to be witty one :) Mod MattHe | Former Community Manager, now in Events & occasional Lore Monkey

13-Oct-2015 09:20:17

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

Posts: 4,793 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Calm Enigma said :
The only way this could work now is if the Clan Cup RCW system was programmed to only let in players registered in the official memberlist.

I know you didn't intend it to be an actual suggestion - but in my eyes even that would still be a better system than the current one - as it would get rid of any tracking issues as well as the problem of warring clans losing their ability to recruit at the most warring-heavy time of the year.

Automatically refusing new players to enter the match would be a godsend, but I have a feeling this would cause trouble on the technical side.


Calm Enigma said :
Mass-recruiting is also worthy of being a rule, [...]

I do agree with this to a certain extent, as I said in my first point I can see two underlying reasons for this rule being in place (problems which do need a solution in some shape or form).

The problem when you start talking about "natural" recruiting though, is that it obviously has a different definition for each clan. As I tried to explain in this thread, not only were we recruiting "less than normally", we completely stopped recruiting all together and only invited people who were still on our (extensive) waiting list. Despite all this we could have easily gone over the 10/week limit for almost every week of this cup if we wanted to, without doing any active recruiting on our part. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
Shuu Zone #1 Community Clan
°•›„¸¸¸¸¸
AngryAraxxor
|
38/46 Insane Final Boss
|
PvPer
PvMer
Community
man

13-Oct-2015 12:00:11

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

Posts: 4,793 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Seer of War said :
To be perfectly honest, I'm not up-to-date on the specifics of the clan cup recruitment policies. We personally maintain the same recruitment policy year round (although we also didn't sign up for PvP cup - not sure if this also applies to Skill or Boss Cups.)

However, this thread seems very reasonable and well thought out. It sounds as though your clan went to great lengths to avoid this outcome.I think the purpose of the clan cup is to get the community involved and participating. Best of luck!
Thanks for the support! ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
Shuu Zone #1 Community Clan
°•›„¸¸¸¸¸
AngryAraxxor
|
38/46 Insane Final Boss
|
PvPer
PvMer
Community
man

13-Oct-2015 12:01:12

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

Posts: 4,793 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mod Matthe said :
Not ignoring this - just buried under disputes, results and fixtures. As soon as I get chance I will look to address some of the points and discussion in this thread but it is something that needs a long reply, not a quick trying to be witty one :)
Completely understandable!

I greatly appreciate your time spent on this whole situation - I know you and the team of investigators did everything you could to try and make a fair decision based on the ruleset at hand, and even to go through the whole dispute process multiple times.

I hope I made clear enough this is not meant to be an attack on the people who designed this rule or hosted/are hosting the clan cup - but rather as an attack on the ruleset itself that hopefully explains from why our DQ resulted in so much disbelief and a feeling of injustice in our clan. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
Shuu Zone #1 Community Clan
°•›„¸¸¸¸¸
AngryAraxxor
|
38/46 Insane Final Boss
|
PvPer
PvMer
Community
man

13-Oct-2015 12:08:50

Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Calm Enigma said :
If the mass-recruiting rule were not in place, the full-out section of the Cup would turn into a recruiting competition, rather than a PvP competition. Recruiting should be natural; removing the mass-recruiting rule would give clans the urge to go beyond their natural recruiting, seeking to steal members from other clans and perhaps even pushing some into merges - all just to build up numbers, rather than because those recruits genuinely prefer that clan. This not only affect the credibility of the JCup but also would also hurt social, skilling and other non-warring clans, who would be key targets for competing clans to snipe members from. Imo it's better to have a slightly subjective rule for the competition to fence off this possibilty.

It wouldn't matter how many you recruited if you could only enter 20 players from each Clan into the match/war. I think you're over emphasising just how much clans will go out of their way to steal members.

Furthermore, most players who are interested in Warring won't be in Skilling/Social clans; they'll be in warring clans. Warring is a very specialist activity on RuneScape and it's not something the average player has any interest in.

Whilst yes, clans would compete over the top PKers, I don't see this as a problem; it is a healthy and interesting way that some extra, spontaneous life is breathed into the recruitment cycle of clans.

There definitely doesn't need to be any rules against recruitment. As I have previously outlined, averaging XP gains, and setting a hard limit on the warring categories (such as 20 v 20, 50 v 50, etc.) means that clans do not serve any gains by simply mass recruiting; therefore, no such rule is required - and is a waste of moderation time anyhow.
Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

13-Oct-2015 12:12:11 - Last edited on 13-Oct-2015 12:13:09 by Subzero

Quick find code: 86-87-611-65691552 Back to Top