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AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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Calm Enigma said :
Of course, with the advent of official clan memberlists, tracking changes became more easy so this rule could be relaxed. This is shown in the 20% rule, which I actually like - it allows clans to recruit, as it only takes into account those exploited for the competition for its definition.

There are two reasons why I don't agree with this:

1. The 20% doesn't scale properly (in fullout, not matched cups)

- An 80 man team is allowed to bring an additional 20 new recruits.
- A 10 man team is allowed to enter with 2 new recruits.

The bigger team, which already had a massive advantage, gets to have an even bigger advantage because of this rule. It is an unfair situation compared to just having a static value.


2. It is easy to track for jagex , but near impossible for the players (in a fullout war)

If we were using purple portal, it would be easier to see how many people get in because of how you can gather your participants in an fc, and then even have a 2 minute grace period for anyone who didn't get in to still enter the match + kick people if needed.

In RCW, the moment you start the match, any stragglers are screwed - which can mess up your planning for this 20% rule (less people in = possible higher % of new recruits). Even if we then managed to find out we breached the rules, we wouldn't be able to force anyone out quickly other than by removing them from the clan. This is why we need proper in-game feedback if this rule stays in place, or simply have it adjusted to a static value (e.g allowed to bring 10 new recruits max). ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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09-Oct-2015 12:55:53

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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I would like to add that when I say "planning for the 20% rule", I don't mean this in the sense of a clan trying to exploit it by getting as many people in as they possibly can.

As I explained in the post about clan intent, a fierce opponent of my clan told us they were going to disqualify us for mass recruiting, long before the cup even started. We in return did everything we possibly could to prevent this from happening - including asking for the exact throttle rules and using every possible form of recruitment locks (other than not inviting anyone at all) and recruitment trackers available to us to stay under them.

As far as we are aware, we invited an average of 5.5 people/week (total joiners, not net gain), and have not breached the 10/week total invites in any of the past 5 weeks. We spent hours looking at videos of the match to see who all was in and whether we went over the 20% rule. As far as we can tell with the tools available to us, we didn't.

Again, this thread is not about whether we actually breached the rules. It's about how we did everything we possibly could to not breach them, and somehow still did without having any clue as to how this is possible. I hope any designers at Jagex will take these points into consideration and learn from them for next cup. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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09-Oct-2015 12:55:59 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2015 13:02:17 by AngryAraxxor

Calm Enigma

Calm Enigma

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AngryAraxxor said :
There are two reasons why I don't agree with this:

1. The 20% doesn't scale properly (in fullout, not matched cups)

- An 80 man team is allowed to bring an additional 20 new recruits.
- A 10 man team is allowed to enter with 2 new recruits.

The bigger team, which already had a massive advantage, gets to have an even bigger advantage because of this rule. It is an unfair situation compared to just having a static value.
[/i]

I assume that is why the 10 per week rule was also added - as a 'minimum' value of new recruits so that small pulls did not result in unreasonably small 20% allowances. Tbh the possibility that bigger clans would usually get larger pulls and thus a larger 20% allowance is somewhat justified as well, since larger clans are likely to have a higher rate of natural recruitment.

Anyhoos on the assumption that both the static 10 per week and the variable 20% need to be breached before an investigation for mass recruiting occurs, your second issue is also addressed as clans who believe they may be at risk of falling foul of the rule would focus on keeping on the right side of the static rule.


Ofc I can't comment on the actual case of DR, as only Jagex have access to and can prove the numbers beyond a doubt. However, given the experience of the JMod hosts, the fact that there were a team of JMods convening to audit disputes this year, and the fact that it would go against their interests to disqualify any clan unless they judged rules to have been broken to a considerable extent, I would be inclined to assume resolutions passed would be correct. -
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09-Oct-2015 13:35:36 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2015 13:36:34 by Calm Enigma

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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Calm Enigma said :
Ofc I can't comment on the actual case of DR, as only Jagex have access to and can prove the numbers beyond a doubt. However, given the experience of the JMod hosts, the fact that there were a team of JMods convening to audit disputes this year, and the fact that it would go against their interests to disqualify any clan unless they judged rules to have been broken to a considerable extent, I would be inclined to assume resolutions passed would be correct.

Don't worry, I wouldn't ask you or anyone else posting here to think otherwise.

All I'm asking is for people to think about how we tried everything in our power not to break the mass recruitment rule but somehow still did (with no clue as to how), and how better design choices could have prevented this from happening. Regardless of whether the decision was right or wrong.

edit: updated conclusion on page 1 based on feedback ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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09-Oct-2015 14:00:09 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2015 14:28:53 by AngryAraxxor

Subzero

Subzero

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There shouldn't be a rule against recruiting for the Clan Cup whatsoever. Rules should be simple black/white rules, and this is one rule that is too ambiguous, and too easily circumvented, for it to be enforceable.

Put simply, you cannot enforce a rule that is essentially "no mass recruiting in the Clan cup period" - it limits recruitment in an otherwise highly active point in the year for the clans, and damages the competitive nature of recruitment in itself. Clan Cup time is one time of year when players actually start to flow between clans, and for the rest of the year this 'transfer window' doesn't occur.

Honestly none of the solutions in this thread work, and they don't work because the rule itself doesn't work.

If you want a rule that can be applied to all Clans, during the Clan cup, then use the following rule:


"- In the Skilling Cup, your overall XP gain is the average XP gain per Clanmate over the competition period, per clanmate. "

So for example, if a Clan with 500 members earns 1B XP - that's a competition score of 2,000,000. If a Clan with 200 members earns 600M XP - that's a competition score of 3,000,000. Therefore the second Clan, with less members, actually wins, because their average XP gain was greater.

This punishes Mass, spam recruiting far more than any of the arbitrary solutions that have been proposed. Sure, huge Clans won't like this one because it punishes their spammy recruitment tactics, but the one I've proposed is the fairest, because it shows a true element of skill; emphasising that quality is greater than quantity.
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09-Oct-2015 16:25:49 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2015 16:28:06 by Subzero

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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Thank you for your reply Subzero. I actually came to the same conclusion at one point - the competition would have probably been better off without this rule all together. However, I felt like this would be a too controversial statement to make due to the history of the rule and as such probably wouldn't get much support, which is why I ended up not putting it in.

The suggested skilling cup rule makes sense. I'm not sure if something similar should be implemented in the PvP cups, but I would imagine the smaller clans are already able to compete with quality over quantity by focusing on the 20v20 cups rather than the fullouts (why does the mass recruiting rule even apply to the 20v20s?). ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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09-Oct-2015 17:23:38 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2015 17:24:55 by AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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AngryAraxxor said :
Update:
Added some quotes to the conclusion. These aren't necessarily people who agree with the entire thread, but rather who have made statements that support specific points I made. ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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10-Oct-2015 17:39:24

AngryAraxxor

AngryAraxxor

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Esploratore said :
Thoughtful, well-written post, OP.

Put simply, I think it's inherently wrong for Jagex to discourage clan recruitment for any reason, at any time.

Thank you for the support! ¸¸¸¸¸¸„‹•°Member of
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11-Oct-2015 11:52:55 - Last edited on 11-Oct-2015 11:53:07 by AngryAraxxor

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