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Thoughts on RuneScape's Combat

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Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Yeah, they removed the combat academy instead of regularly updating it as the game progressed. Says a lot about how they view things doesn't it? Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

24-Sep-2022 14:48:17

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Honestly when I came back from my last almost 4 year break from the game, I found myself crap at the combat. Like I knew how the abilities worked, but between not playing for so long, and the fact I had moved from using my left hand to using my right hand for the keyboard in that time, I sucked. Now I had never really been that great at bossing, mainly because I didn't have the patience to sit there for hours learning the ins and outs of each individual boss. But I was amazing when it came to pvp. I'm still pretty good at pvp now, tad rusty at the moment, but slowly regaining my reflexes.

I find it interesting really how somebody can be crap at doing the bosses or even some slayer mobs in this game, but have no issues holding their own when it comes to pvp battles. Only thing that really becomes an issue is when I get massively outgeared. If we are equally geared, most of the time I'll be the one who comes out on top in pvp battles. But put me in front of a high tier boss? I just do not survive at all. I've just never been one of those people who really likes fighting bosses. I always played the game making money so I could waste it on pvp.

But yeah, you'd think being amazing at pvp would mean I would be great at bossing and slayer, but they really are two entirely different skills. I don't really think Jagex understands this though.
Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

24-Sep-2022 22:20:49

Sylvanheart
Oct Member 2023

Sylvanheart

Posts: 222 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Vengeance of said :
The reason I bring this up is that it shouldn't take an experienced player -- one that's had thousands of hours in-game and maxed in every skill -- four years and a guide made by a professional PvMer to figure out how to make a game's marquee combat system feel passable . I seriously have to wonder how many players RuneScape has lost over the years simply because they ran into the same problems I did. I'm no genius, but surely I'm not so stupid as to be the only one who has fallen into this trap.

Basic functionality in a combat system should not hang in the balance of whether or not you have two or three abilities in the wrong order, let alone one that doesn't even try to tell you what you're doing wrong.


Jack Flac said :
Like is mandated in FFXIV


Yeah, the combat system is definitely not intuitive at all. I guess it's all about ability rotations and also using abilities at ideal times, but certainly compared to FFXIV (and really a lot of other hotbar MMOs, but FFXIV is perhaps the most jaw-dropping comparison in terms of just how much better it is)... it's a total mess.

The jobs in FFXIV are all so clearly streamlined to make it very easy to figure out the job's basic rotation. Hell, it's almost impossible to not play the job correctly. Then they add more advanced stuff in terms of keeping stuff aligned with buffs and not leaving oGCD stuff on cooldown. Plus positioning and uptime management and all that good stuff.

But RuneScape? Yeah, no. It feels like they dreamed up a bunch of thematic skills for each combat style, assigned an effect based on that theme, and then threw the whole random lot of them at us and said: "Here are some cool and flashy abilities. Figure out how to make it work yourself."

25-Sep-2022 06:20:00 - Last edited on 27-Sep-2022 14:15:26 by Sylvanheart

Sylvanheart
Oct Member 2023

Sylvanheart

Posts: 222 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm no fan of hand-holding in games. But there's a difference between not hand-holding and just lazy design. They still need to design a combat system that actually works. They don't need to explicitly state how it works. But it still need to be based on something.

At the start of EoC, it really did feel like it was just random. Nowadays, maybe they put more thought into it. But since the foundation of it all is still not really any different than the original EoC, it still doesn't really work.

For a long time, I always alternated between the basic 3s ability (e.g. Slice, Wrack, etc) and some other basic. Then I threw in a Threshold at the start of every Slayer mob, etc. I didn't realize how bad that was until I complained to someone about how I couldn't kill the Giant Mimic quickly enough and they told me to stop using Wrack :P . But it's easy to see why it's tempting to fall into the habit I did:

Cooldowns are not intuitive at all and at low levels without a lot of stuff unlocked there aren't even enough basics to rotate through. For example, the only decent basics I have for magic are Sonic Wave and Dragon Breath. Chain is barely better than Wrack but is better than nothing (though honestly an autoattack might do more...). Problem is it also aggros other mobs which isn't always desirable. Impact is also crap unless it's paired with Wrack to follow the stun/bind... which for some reason doesn't apply to mobs when playing with magic (even though ranged works just fine; I guess because they don't want mages to kite melee mobs forever). But yeah. I end up with nothing to cast so of course I fell into alternating with Wrack. Nowadays I know that once I build up to 50%+ adrenaline I can keep decent basics going 24/7 by adding thresholds to the mix. But for a total newbie it is SO unintuitive.

25-Sep-2022 06:29:10 - Last edited on 25-Sep-2022 06:37:23 by Sylvanheart

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Just curious, but have you bough the Scare Tactics grimoire? It's about 1Mil. It's something they released a while back, it introduced magic and ranged versions of some of the early melee abilities to try and help fix some of those "lack of ability" issues you speak of. I know they show abilities that you can unlock from codex's and which codex's unlock them in the skillbook now. Not sure how many people buy them early on. I just went and got one as a drop when I came back. Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

25-Sep-2022 11:10:55

Roddy Piper
Jan Member 2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I definitely have the same problem with basics. Most of them are useless, if I try manually casting I run out of them.

To me the biggest problem with EOC is bugs. Apparently there are major issues with queuing abilities in revolution-which SHOULD be the ideal method of playing the game. Revo with manual inputs.

As far as I know most of my complaints about EOC are due to bugs. Being stuck during animations, delays in channeled abilities, which should be the most powerful. On the flip side, the high tier combat folk grab an EXTRA hit on these by cancelling early. That was discussed in the video. It is BS! I get the double whammy, and the timing of that extra hit is not easily learned or understood (by me).

The bugs that harm my gameplay don't get fixed.

Other bugs as mentioned in the video allow some players to exceed the design.

These bugs don't get fixed.

There is no logical way to describe this situation, other than NO bugs are getting fixed. Mod Pips must think this entire game is some kind of joke. He is ultimately responsible. To make it much worse, that last segment of the video describes how top tier combat players use bots to assist their gameplay. Jagex is like yep, we should probably say something about that. Nap time.

Where is their boss???

25-Sep-2022 12:06:09

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
You really complaining about bugs now? They've been doing the whole "bugs turned into features thing" since people figured out they could prayer flick, and they decided, "hey, why not introduce a boss around that" hence Jad was born. Animation cancelling and 4TAA aint ever going away. And they'll somehow manage to find a way to turn the bugs with rev into a feature of combat instead I'm sure too instead of fixing them.

I'm not saying these things shouldn't be patched out, Jads already gt a lot more leeway compared to pre-eoc. But nah, Jagex will never fix these things. They love making bugs into features. Even Bob the Cat was a bug made into a feature. To be honest I don't even think they properly know how to fix these things anymore.
Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

25-Sep-2022 16:56:01

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jeremy Cheng said :
it sucks, can't remember the last time a boss was added that was intended for legacy combat


No, and RS3 will never make anything intended for legacy combat because the actions of the RS3 community told Jagex Legacy combat sucks, so Jagex actually removed large chunk of Legacy Only Worlds.

25-Sep-2022 18:39:07

Jack Flac
Feb Member 2022

Jack Flac

Posts: 6,207 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jack Flac said :
You really complaining about bugs now? They've been doing the whole "bugs turned into features thing" since people figured out they could prayer flick, and they decided, "hey, why not introduce a boss around that" hence Jad was born. Animation cancelling and 4TAA aint ever going away. And they'll somehow manage to find a way to turn the bugs with rev into a feature of combat instead I'm sure too instead of fixing them.

I'm not saying these things shouldn't be patched out, Jads already gt a lot more leeway compared to pre-eoc. But nah, Jagex will never fix these things. They love making bugs into features. Even Bob the Cat was a bug made into a feature. To be honest I don't even think they properly know how to fix these things anymore.
And honestly I'm not saying there's a problem with being able to cancel channeled abilities. Most games I play that has channeled abilities has a built in way to cancel them. But when they were making the combat, they deigned it that way, and most of the time, you are better off not cancelling. It's not like if you don't cancel every single time you always lose out on massive dps. In RS, it was an afterthought. The game was never intended to be designed around animation canceling. We aren't even breaking out of channeled really. The attacks still go through in the end, it's just our character does other things in the last tick circumventing the last bit of animation. It's another bug made into a feature.
Leader of The Enemy ||
The opposite of Justice is simply another Justice. What is Evil is subjective to each person.
YOU
are their evil

25-Sep-2022 20:01:05

Roddy Piper
Jan Member 2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
If we are talking about why combat is bad and hard to learn, the queuing bug is major. The only place I found that information was on their PVME discord whatever.

I haven't been playing EOC the whole time, I just got started. It seems like their plan is to simply bypass the combat system with powerful shenanigans like animate dead and melee bleeds.

I am totally onboard with that concept. This is a game. There is nothing wrong with letting me enjoy it.

26-Sep-2022 13:39:47 - Last edited on 26-Sep-2022 13:40:11 by Roddy Piper

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