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~Pick-a-Pocket Pickpocket~

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Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

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I did them quite a bit as well yesterday, since I wanted to have that permanent teleport seed for myself - have gotten it with an hour of knights and half an hour of druids.

Using the t5 aura, the elite outfit, crystal mask and light form (never had used the latter two before that) it was actually a 0 % failure rate for the knights - the mask being the most important thing, since when either the form or the aura ran out I still was able to steal for a while, wheras without the mask (albeit that implies the light form was inactive at the same time) I almost instantly failed. Since I've never used the relic before either, I only had the 10 pickpockets in a row from the outfit and now having infinite auto pickpockets was incredibly impressive. That probably will also come in handy when I want some new easy clues eventually.

I mean yeah - the base rates are jarring, but I guess with those being high levelled targets, it's probably not even that wrong nudging the players to use more advanced tools - they exist for a reason after all. The druids on the other hand were entirely fine with just the outfit at 99 thieving - nothing else. The only attention the game needed for that case was to prevent the auto logout. Without the outfit it failed from time to time, but nowhere as bad as the knights without the crystal mask.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

08-Nov-2022 06:36:11 - Last edited on 08-Nov-2022 08:39:09 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,258 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
They should take regard for lower levelled targets for medium levelled players who might not have such a multitude of effects available though (since yeah all they could have might be the ardougne perk, some t1/2 aura and the gloves of silence). Low levelled things should take nothing, but the pure level into account for balancing.

And otherwise - making loot tables more appealing - the knights aren't that bad for that matter either - but a lot of things with similar levels are.

If thieving was to receive an 120 extension I certainly would propose a 100 % success rate for all thieving activities at all times as the cape perk, so players can just go out more easily without some kind of preparation (or even to aid players who haven't got those things for whatever reason available) - cooking has something likewise on its current cape, albeit in here it's needed to not burn some things in the first place, as far as I can recall.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

08-Nov-2022 08:37:37 - Last edited on 08-Nov-2022 08:54:37 by Rikornak

A  Cole
Nov Member 2003

A  Cole

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This is where it starts to get more infuriating. If pickpocketing is only viable at either a) targets way below your level, or b) with all the additional enhancers, then pickpocketing is not a viable training method for everyone. As you say, the druid's are almost pointless as you need to be a much higher thieving level to use them effectively, but at that point, it's expected that you move on to the knights - should you have the equipment to make these effective that is.

As for the equipment, let's look at the requirements:

> Ardougne Cape: Level 71 Magic requirement, many combat related quest requirements;
> Black Ibis: Rare drop from Pyramid Plunder - XP booster only;
> Exoskeleton Set: Locked behind combat related questline;
> Camouflage Set: Obtainable after level 70 Thieving and 20 Invention;
> Gloves of Silence: 54 Hunter Requirement;
> Crystal Mask: Level 90 Magic requirement, and quest-locked;
> Five-Finger Discount Auras: Locked behind loyalty program - not accessible to new accounts.

Now, while I don't mind certain high levelled boosts being locked behind high level content, I do mind when they're required to make the method of training viable. Without them, the user experience falls off drastically and suddenly it's not worth doing.

If we get to the point of having a higher Thieving level, should the average player be expected to have unlocked all these boosts? I suppose so, perhaps. However, there are many players out there who do not play the game like the average player, and because of this, they've been locked out of a key training method for Thieving.

As for pickpocketing becoming AFK, I thought we had safes for that method. What happened to the mantra of high user input - high reward / low user input - lower reward? Pickpocketing can be, and should be, that high user input - high reward training method.


~A~

08-Nov-2022 09:55:47

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,258 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As I said - I do think low levelled pickpocketing needs to be much more forgiving (since yeah - what would you even want to unlock to make your life easier?), at medium (I understand that as levels 40-70 - A tier 1 or possibly even 2 aura is not unreasonable at that point, it's really not that expensive unless you've literally ground out that point in a few days, which basically is a crippling overspecialization) it's fine to take things into account you reasonably can come by - but at high levels it should be fair game (certainly not all boosters at once, but you should have a broad selection). Take the knights - they certainly did not need everything everything the game had to offer - I am more than certain they would work with a tier 4 or possibly even 3 aura as well - and maybe none at all if I had used that soul-in-a-box instead. Familiars would also exist as an option. Possibly other things, but it wasn't needed to optimize to that degree. Maybe for something even higher than them?

When you as a pure start to reject quests and alternative content left and right, solely due to light combat involvement, that's unfortunate, but you obviously need to put in more work by having your level higher than someone who did as a compensation - how much is up to balancing - but that's basically also my suggestion with a 120 thieving expansion and its master cape perk offering success everywhere at all times without anything else - which for a pure is an alternative path to achieve this, while for everyone else some actual progression again (since you'll have those aforementioned methods long before this).
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

08-Nov-2022 11:12:07 - Last edited on 08-Nov-2022 13:48:10 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,258 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Generally I also could get behind abolishing the aura benefit, since it's nothing to earn - no more thieving aura (or maybe replacing it by something less important like a chance for double loot and xp), but +15 % success rates all over the board. That could be said for other skills as well, but I never felt any of them to be as essential as this to be fair, while for others it's usually just a nice to have, that increases your profit and xp rates for a bit.

Of course as long as those are not a thing you can stick to thieving activities, that would not demand as much of unlocks and/or preparation from you - they do exist for a reason after all. Pickpocketing requires attention (and obviously still does when you can't achieve 100 % success rates), but it never was the most intense thieving activity for that matter - that would be coshing or possibly even PP, but it obviously always was the one, which could be improved the most by progression - starting with something as insanely old as the gloves of silence.

It isn't that different to other skills - focussing on one skill alone rarely is a viable tactic - you often get improvements through other skills (and yes - combat skills are skills), quests or more advanced content. A cook who actively rejects doing the family crest will have a horrible time until he reaches skill mastery, which even offers something better - but it certainly was harder for you getting to that point. Other skills also get significantly better with unlocks.

If unlocks weren't taken into account at all, you invalidate any kind of progression and that just shouldn't be a thing in a game, which actually doesn't force you into some specialization, but rather eventually allowing you to master it all, as well as the interactions between those skills. I certainly felt rewarded for having done this quest all those years ago, despite never having used spell and prayer for this kind of activity before.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

08-Nov-2022 11:14:27 - Last edited on 08-Nov-2022 14:05:14 by Rikornak

A  Cole
Nov Member 2003

A  Cole

Posts: 14,761 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I sincerely agree with the points you make Rikornak, particularly when talking about progression through the game. There are clearly many unlocks which will help a lot with pickpocketing, even if they're mostly quest-locked and/or combat-locked.

My only issue with it really, is that the base mechanics are so jarring compared to other mechanics in the game, that the unlocks become requirements. This is the only training method I can think of in the entirety of RS where this is an issue.

I know I've gone into much more detail on the opening page regarding on how it could be updated, but I do feel now, more than ever, that new mechanics can breathe new life into the skill. Personally, I'd find it more entertaining than yet another AFK skill.


~A~

08-Nov-2022 16:23:55

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,258 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I am not fully sure if they want to get somewhere with pickpocketing, but they specifically reworked this part of the skill after introducing the first regular pickpocketing target for many years (everything else basically worked like prif with autopickpocketing and eventually failing and being locked out to do this for a while - that those things exist was a clear proof to me, that they're totally aware, that this part of the skill is an issue), rather than the entire skill like they did with farming. There still are some issues like a lack of reason to use most pickpocketing targets other for gaining experience, as well as too unforgiving failure rates at lower levels, but I certainly do think, that pockpocketing is in a better spot than it historically was.

I don't think your idea is bad or so - but now it certainly must no longer be a replacement to regular pickpocketing, it could be an interesting additional alternative possibly if they're getting the balancing right.

Thieving (or rather pickpocketing as a subset, since there are things working just fine on their own) certainly isn't the only skill relying on other things to properly work - I mentioned cooking before, archaeology also is something like that - as a regular account you can compensate that by a certain degree by being able to trade, as an ironman you won't even have a proper tool to work with starting with level 60 (archaeology is an extremely fast skill usually, yet it took so long on the FSW for that reason). And even with a regular account your rates will be significantly worse without invention or even without getting the mattock of space and time (unless you're lucky enough to lay your hands on a tony, which has no outside reliance...). Mining likewise - you need to rely on other content - at a minimum an equal smithing level, ideally the ability to obtain the various special pickaxes. Woodcutting following a proper rework + expansion won't be any different.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

09-Nov-2022 07:02:06 - Last edited on 09-Nov-2022 07:11:15 by Rikornak

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,258 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As I said - I would get rid of the reliance of the aura bonus by either abolishing it entirely or replacing it by something less essential, while giving out the base chance by default as well as some high boost for targets up to 30 and some noticable boost for targets up to 70 (maybe even some small one for things higher than that, albeit at that point it's just fair to assume to get your unlocks) in addition. Question obviously would be, if failure rates could be disabled for a pickpocketing target close to 99 - the knights are 'just' 83 after all. On reddit they've posted other substitutes (like the abyssal lurker being able to be used instead of the outfit), but seemingly the only real must have is the crystal mask + at least two other things. But that's where my master cape perk proposal would kick in - players would no longer need to make up their minds, which combinations could work and which not. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

09-Nov-2022 07:09:42

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