RuneScape Forum Archive | ~Pick-a-Pocket Pickpocket~

Dec

2023

Kopaka

Posts: 3,578 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I had forgotten how absurd pickpocketing the dwarven traders is.

I just went there to remind myself.

Full elite camo outfit, 99 cape, legendary 5 finger discount aura, sticky fingers

I can't get more than 2 successful pickpockets off in a row without being caught. Makes sticky fingers feel quite pointless! Though it seems maybe locking the guards in the rooms helps quite a lot. Still, can't get more than 5 seconds without being caught.

And the drops are genuinely beyond useless. One copper stone spirit? You joshing me right now?

03-Jun-2021 20:18:41 - Last edited on 03-Jun-2021 20:20:41 by Kopaka

Nov

2003

A Cole

Posts: 14,747 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I implore anyone reading this and is undecided on whether a change is necessary to go to the Dwarven Traders, as Kopaka has, and try them out for yourself.

I went there recently for a Yak Track task, and must have gotten about 100 successes or so in about an hour that I was there. Given the task was 1.1k pickpockets, I felt it was not worth my time being there, so I went back to pickpocketing guards.

Before the Mining and Smithing rework, I pickpocketed Dwarven Traders fairly often. I'd say for a good 30-40m XP or so. At the time, it felt worthwhile. Given the relatively recent changes however, there is simply no reason to go back.

I agree with every conclusion you have made there Kopaka.

~A~

03-Jun-2021 22:07:28

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Thing is - you're given a vast amount of tools to actually bypass the failure rates nowadays:

- Crystal Mask: +15 %
- Aura: +3-15 % - While a t5 aura would be overkill, it's really not that hard to grab at least t2 for a 5 % boost if you're something like high levelled.
- Outfit: +5-7 % (gloves of silence, automaton outfit/lesser camouflage, master camouflage)
- Soul-in-a-box: Some kind of effect, albeit the wiki doesn't exactly state how much it is
- Ardougne 2/3 (Arodugne/Global): Some kind of effect, albeit the wiki also doesn't state how much it is (in OS it's 10 %, but it doesn't stack with the gloves of silence there)
- Abyssal familiars: Up to 4 levels - whatever that effect might be, it easily could be the difference between 100 % success and failing from time to time. As I said before - you'll always steal from knights from level 95 onwards.

Except for the ardougne diary, the gloves of silence and the familiars nothing was available back in the day, but even having all that stuff available to me doesn't give me a reason to go stealing outside of prif, since I am getting better loot there, but I am fairly sure you could hugely diminish the failure rates if you actually want to. Have you used all of those tools? Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 06:27:58 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 06:35:14 by Rikornak

Dec

2023

Kopaka

Posts: 3,578 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

You should really try the dwarves yourself, Rik. Even just for 5 minutes. It's so bad.

The problem of useless loot remains an issue even if you managed to get 100% success rate. But with the higher level thieving options outside of prif and the Arc, you're just not going to manage a high success rate, from what I can tell.

The only exceptions that spring to mind are blackjacking menaphites and ninja knife fighters, but they both are much more click intensive and hardly qualify as standard pickpocketing.

04-Jun-2021 07:11:44

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Kopaka said :
...

Rikornak said :
Dwarven traders sorta are the issue, that most thieving activities just were designed for gaining experience - and for that they were historically insanely good - since they had left-click pickpocketing available, before that became a thing for most other targets and they actually hadn't had as bad failure rates as pickpocket targets in the 70s/80s had - which was a huge relief for me back in the day when I had unlocked them (prif wasn't a thing at that point and I was hugely fed up with PP upon reaching level 90). Of course since then activities had been released, that were more profitable (prif), more convenient (prif) or faster for levelling (safes). But that again isn't an issue of how pickpocketing works, it's more an issue with that loot table - prif elves once again are a good example of how a loot table should look like for the most part. Beef up the loot table and you've got a perfectly viable alternative - needing more attention, but in terms of experience it can more than hold up right now already - not with safes of course - but if the loot is right it doesn't need to - you've got 3 different activities that way at high levels, which each work on their own way. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 07:50:40 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 07:54:55 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I trained with them before most of my aforementioned chance boosters, prif or safe cracking were a thing. I know their loot is crap (actually the fault of the mining/smithing rework - they dropped noted ores before that, which were worth a lot more than the current spirits), but xp wise they're better than prif, which made them a viable alternative before safe cracking existed, if players were ready to deal with the regular pickpocketing bullshit to a lesser degree than usual (if you think dwarven traders are bad - try heroes, gnomes, elves or paladins - which all four are lower levelled - paladins even significantly), trapping guards (actually a requirement, similiar to if you were to try stealing from stalls - it's 100 % per default, but you'll fail if a guard sees you), paying more attention and getting worse loot. Safe cracking obviously extinguished that pure xp niche it had. Since they actually are more forgiving, than certain lower levelled targets pickpocketting targets they actually just do need that revamped loot table I literally had suggested in my quote. How could their loot be made appealing? Kick the seeds and just let them drop stone spirits - usually a mix of t50-70s and sometimes t80/90 - shouldn't be too common, but you should be able to see them from time to time - that makes them drop at least a couple of hundred gp each time - potentially more if you're ready to use those spirits to get ores.

Coshing is yet another topic - I mean - if it would exist as the top xp rate alternative fine - I personally wouldn't use it, but if players want to break their hands for more xp (or better loot) that's fine to me - thieving has a lot of alternatives. But yeah - this thread is about basic pickpocketing at first. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 07:57:30 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 08:21:36 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

But as for those chance boosters - Cole wanted to complete a thieving task in some other way - completing it doesn't imply going out as profitable as possible - it just suggests you should be able to do it quickly and some viable fasion - is it reasonable right now using all my suggested boosters for that? Potentially not, but with revamped loot and potentially a bigger effect of your level on the thieving chance it actually could be - see my first reply for that aspect.

Outlevel it by 20 levels and you should have your 100 % chance without using anything else - if you can't outlevel it that much, you need to use some of my mentioned boosters - maybe even ALL of them for something with a base level of 99 - or 120 one day. I mean even a small rest chance (i.e. up to 5 %) wouldn't be that problematic, but I generally think players should be able to eliminate that mechanic if they're using everything the game offers them in theory - and even if not it should be fairer at least. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 08:16:20 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 08:28:22 by Rikornak

Nov

2003

A Cole

Posts: 14,747 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Unfortunately most of the boosters are not available to me. Yes, I choose to limit myself with the account build I have, but I'm not going to change that so I only fail 6/10 times instead of 8/10 times at a niche, unrewarding pickpocketing NPC.

Right now the seeds are the best drops from Dwarven Traders. The likes of Grapevine and Reed seeds are the big money earners, but you're not going to come across many of those due to the preference of low value stone spirits.

As for the guards on the trade floor, it was intended for players to pay their company to bribe the guards to turn a blind eye. This was an okay mechanic, but requires un-noted ores and bars to make the bribe, and the bribe doesn't last all that long. This is getting a little bit away from the intention of this thread, but it would be great if this mechanic was worked on at the same time as a pickpocketing fix. Allow us to use the loot we pickpocket to make the bribe, and possibly make it so chances of success go up whilst under this bribe mode.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many boosters you are using, you are not going to get any meaningful use out of the Thieving outfit / Archaeology perk that allows you to pickpocket many times in a row before getting caught at high level NPCs. The failure rate is so high that you'll be lucky to see three successes in a row. This means this activity remains very hands on, which is the opposite of those perks intentions.

Of course Jagex could throw more and more boosters at us which negate all of these failures, but what would be the point? Pickpocketing may then become so good that safe-cracking becomes completely redundant. At least by updating the mechanics, there can be more control over XP rates, rewards, etc. Even if these come out as below safecracking rates, you'd still get people pickpocketing if it's an engaging mechanic. As it stands, it's not very engaging - at least in my opinion.

~A~

04-Jun-2021 09:35:18

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

A Cole said :
Right now the seeds are the best drops from Dwarven Traders. The likes of Grapevine and Reed seeds are the big money earners, but you're not going to come across many of those due to the preference of low value stone spirits.

That's a good catch. I had had stuff like barberry, sunchoke, flytraps in mind - stuff that literally was worth just 1 gp for so many years and even now after half a dozen of attempts to raise its value isn't worth much. But that (alongside low tier stone spirits) is the crap that should be cleaned from those tables.

Actually converting bribing into a boost mechanic also would be a cool idea - it doesn't need to be what is being stolen, but it should be stackable - so you wouldn't be forced to re-bank ever so often. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 10:09:23 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 10:28:55 by Rikornak

Oct

2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,247 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

A Cole said :
Of course Jagex could throw more and more boosters at us which negate all of these failures, but what would be the point? Pickpocketing may then become so good that safe-cracking becomes completely redundant. At least by updating the mechanics, there can be more control over XP rates, rewards, etc. Even if these come out as below safecracking rates, you'd still get people pickpocketing if it's an engaging mechanic. As it stands, it's not very engaging - at least in my opinion.

~A~

You should stop thinking in absolutes. There is a spectrum between useless and meta - always depending on what you see as important for your training - costs/profit, pure xp rates, attention required, the way of interaction, requirements,... - something always will find some way of use unless it's incredibly bad in each category or just outright excelled in each one by something else - which naturally should happen with the next higher levelled thing in one category - going full circle: that is where a lot of older things are failing - thieving as much as our trees higher levelled than acadia.

Even if you could entirely shutdown the failure rate by using 6 different mechanics (I honestly do think that is enough - we don't need even more in the future - if anything Jagex has to work on the base) as well as activating a relic slot it hardly would render safes useless for the simple reason they literally do not have any requirements, but being able to go to a certain location (with most of them freely available anyway), as well as having that thieving level. You basically said your account isn't able to use most of the boosters mentioned - so obviously safes still would be the way to go for you.

But generally - non-automatic pickpocketing (and coshing) should be the high attention, medium xp, high profit niche if it was done right - coshing even moreso than pickpocketing, since the way to interact is worse. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

04-Jun-2021 10:15:16 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2021 10:23:33 by Rikornak

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~Pick-a-Pocket Pickpocket~