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Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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--Not necessarily. If an old lady trips up on the road, 7 would come to her aid, 2 would kick her, and the other try to steal her handbag. Even in rural villages, people are close and do good things – why? You can say that because humans are social animals, they live in packs, and like the other animals, they establish a social order to make things organisable. Our ancestors decided that nobody would like to live in a society where murder, steal, and bodily assaults are permitted. We set up laws, to make people think twice before doing bad deeds. And why would people do good deeds anyway, if there was no law or social convention? I’ll elaborate more later.
“On top of that, could I not say the same thing about LBGT organizations? I could point the finger and say that some of them are teaching that all straight people are evil, or that simply because we do not openly suport LGBT rights that we are against LGBT rights. I suppose this goes back to your smoking example, but how can we single one out over the other?”
--Really? Not one I have ever encountered said ‘straight people are evil’. This is partly because straight people are inherently attractive to some of us, and we can’t help but like them. Also, many of us have straight friends, guys or girls, and friends that help out. I had never encountered this kind of organization that preaches hatred for straight people – and logically, it’* extremely unlikely.

04-Jun-2011 17:48:46

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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“Aren't we taught anyway not to be greedy? Aren't we taught to suppress that greed and not to steal, so that we might be offered freedom as opposed to imprisonment? Even taking it one step back from stealing, we are taught that if we are kind to someone, and suppress those feelings that might be viewed as "unkind," that our neighbors will be grateful to us for having exhibited such kindness? When someone wrongs us, we, naturally, feel the need to wrong them back, perhaps in a magnitude greater than that with which they wronged us. Doesn't society suppress that, so that, once again, we might avoid imprisonment?”
--As humans are social animals, we are quite able to take advantage of each other to boost our own gene’s survival. While one can choose to murder, one can also decide to form friendship, and do deals. I’ll groom your back, and you’ll groom mine. When a child is instructed by his/her mother not to exhibit certain negative behaviours, this is to boost the survival of the individual, more likely to form friendships (that may bring more gifts, or join you in battle) as a result. Coming back to our original point, take Christianity for example, and Jesus said never covert your neighbour’s wife and even thinking about it is a sin. But that, the intent to control our thoughts and suppress something that is basic and natural have often disastrous effects, in the form of repression. Biologically speaking, if you see a beautiful woman, and you deem her genes suitable to yours, you’d desire to reproduce with her, which is normal. The conscience then has to decide whether the risk is worth the consequences. But trying to eliminate these thoughts at all is, I’d argue, unnatural and unproductive.

04-Jun-2011 17:49:01

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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“But it's encouraging "free thinking" in the way that Edward feels "free thinking" is defined. I'm a religious individual. I am exercising my right in the United States (I'm not sure how it goes elsewhere) to freedom of religion and speech, and I am freely choosing to participate in religion. This "free thinking" that Edward is supposedly ushering in by banning religion is a far cry from free thinking in my mind. He can speak out against religion, but if anything, Edward is encroaching upon this "free thinking" by banning people from participating in religion. You can't immediately oust the norm and usher in the new. A prime example was the Soviet Union. Imediately after its dissolution, Boris Yeltsin immediately destroyed the socialist policies and replaced them with capitalism. The new Russia faltered, and entered a stage where nothing could be done economically.”

04-Jun-2011 17:49:19

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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--You may exercise your right without interfering the rights of another is my stance on this. LGBT people, quite a lot of them atheist or non-believers, are quite capable of leaving religious individuals alone. But if there’s one thing religion can’t do, it’s to not preach and sit around. It can’t actually leave non-believers alone. When religion crosses its boundaries (it has done so in the past, and will continue doing so) into where we consider is our territory (Right to marry, right to adopt, right to hold hands in public), it can expect repercussions. Granted, you will say that religions are retreating on this issue, but I still wouldn’t consider the boundaries restored or, for that matter, the invasion forgotten. In Edward’s case, religion has lashed out towards him, before he’d done anything. Not only has he lost ground to recover, but also the intent to attack him in the first place. And for religion to cross the boundary, as I said in the story, it required the failure of imagination and empathy – a precious gift to every human being, which religion remains as one of the only few channels to bypass and shut it off immediately, leading to the 9/11 attacks.

04-Jun-2011 17:49:31

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

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"Really? Not one I have ever encountered said ‘straight people are evil’"
That was really just a general statement of mine, or a hypothetical situation that I threw out there. It wasn't rooted in fact, and I probably should not have said it.
"You may exercise your right without interfering the rights of another is my stance on this. LGBT people, quite a lot of them atheist or non-believers, are quite capable of leaving religious individuals alone. But if there’s one thing religion can’t do, it’s to not preach and sit around. It can’t actually leave non-believers alone."
The only way you can gather more support for your cause is by talking to non-believers. This goes for any organization, whether it is an LGBT group trying to convince those that are against them that they are deserving of their rights, whether it is a religious group trying to bring more people in, or whether it is a group of concerned citizens trying to pass a bill. The only difference between the groups is the causes that they represent and what people consider to be "right" or what they feel they are allowed to try and convince other people to do. In some cases, I am annoyed by atheists who tell me that what I believe in is wrong, or that I'm stupid for believing in God.
"(Right to marry, right to adopt, right to hold hands in public)"
You know what my stance is on this. And right to hold hands in public? Must be a bit past my time, but that's just outrageous.

05-Jun-2011 01:10:41

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

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"Catholics/Protestant Baptists, are still parts of Christianity, stemmed from the same book. I’ve heard pastors and reverends speak on this issue – how they get there at all astounds me, and that they’re allowed to spread this poison at all also is quite shocking. Many even spoke as though white were superior to blacks. But I cannot let Catholics be exempt from my argument.'
Yes, and there are *** **********, there are *** racists, there are atheists who are racist and **********. When there are about a billion and a half Christians, however, of course we're going to find more from that group than the other. We can pick one from each bunch and go on and on and on, but, as I have gathered throughout this argument, you have deduced that Christianity--or religion in general--is the root of all that is evil in the world, and we can keep going providing examples from both sides. It seems as though this portion of the discussion has reached a dead end. If you feel otherwise, then I would be glad to continue.
"The Pope himself concealed some of the most hideous crimes against children by his subordinates, and by the law, he should be imprisoned. Yet, as a dominant religious figure, he is exempt."
On the subject of the pope, I feel that it may have less to do with the fact that he's a high religious figure and more to do with diplomatic immunity and differences in laws across countries. Catholicism is composed of a billion people over tens of countries, and there is no distinct law code across all of them. Furthermore, I know personally of a cardinal in my area who did such things, and all of the priests were punished accordingly, and the cardinal was removed from his position.
As a whole I feel that this discussion is winding down, or nearing the point of running in circles, and in the event that this does happen I would like to thank you for this discussion. I feel that it has been fruitful, and it's nice to have an intelligent discussion every now and then.

05-Jun-2011 01:23:03

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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“The only way you can gather more support for your cause is by talking to non-believers. This goes for any organization, whether it is an LGBT group trying to convince those that are against them that they are deserving of their rights, whether it is a religious group trying to bring more people in, or whether it is a group of concerned citizens trying to pass a bill. The only difference between the groups is the causes that they represent and what people consider to be "right" or what they feel they are allowed to try and convince other people to do. In some cases, I am annoyed by atheists who tell me that what I believe in is wrong, or that I'm stupid for believing in God.”

05-Jun-2011 13:17:40

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

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--While what you said is true, that this is the nature of any organisation, there is a distinct difference between how religion goes about ‘gathering more support’ as opposed to LGBT groups. LGBT groups, while some do go on a equality campaign and post billboards, others set up internal youth groups, helplines, charities, and so on. While they’re simply requesting equality and rights, they do not really recruit more LGBT individuals. They don’t multiply. Religion on the other hand, brings people into the organisation, and generate more of themselves by claiming their god is real and other religions are false. They can’t really leave non-believers alone, and are active to block progressive measures such as stem-cell research, abortion, preventative measures for reproduction, right to marry and adopt for LGBT individuals – as if they have no clue that there are already too many people, and have no foresight to tell them that if this carries on, we’ll starve ourselves out in the future. Other things religion go out of their way to oppose is Evolution being taught in science textbooks, Earth not being in the centre of the universe etc. The former being the Creation Story had *no* evidence and do not merit its place in science, the latter has been proven wrong by scientists already. As you can probably see, religion does a great deal more than just approaching non-believers – they go out of their ways to affect and influence non-believers lives with their own ideals.

“You know what my stance is on this. And right to hold hands in public? Must be a bit past my time, but that's just outrageous.”
--Actually, I don’t. But whatever your stance on this is, it should be your own decision. I’m only here to dispel unfounded preconceptions.

05-Jun-2011 13:17:53 - Last edited on 06-Jun-2011 10:23:47 by Englishkid62

Englishkid62

Englishkid62

Posts: 9,782 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
“Yes, and there are *** **********, there are *** racists, there are atheists who are racist and **********. When there are about a billion and a half Christians, however, of course we're going to find more from that group than the other. We can pick one from each bunch and go on and on and on, but, as I have gathered throughout this argument, you have deduced that Christianity--or religion in general--is the root of all that is evil in the world, and we can keep going providing examples from both sides. It seems as though this portion of the discussion has reached a dead end. If you feel otherwise, then I would be glad to continue.”

--Lol, let’s just say… how many people were killed in the name of religion? How many were killed in the name of LGBT individuals? Why exactly should we tolerate religion before LGBT individuals in this society? Why should we allow religion to govern our lives? Let’s not forget that Jesus’s mother Mary did not rise to the heavens (it wasn’t recorded in the bible, but rather, a myth started around 500 years after Jesus’s death) but was still confirmed by the pope as a fact. These beliefs (I’d call the process of unthinking and accepting everything from a divine figure as the truth) should not be allowed the role they have now in our society, and even more so, should not have been there in children’s education.

“On the subject of the pope, I feel that it may have less to do with the fact that he's a high religious figure and more to do with diplomatic immunity and differences in laws across countries. Catholicism is composed of a billion people over tens of countries, and there is no distinct law code across all of them. Furthermore, I know personally of a cardinal in my area who did such things, and all of the priests were punished accordingly, and the cardinal was removed from his position.”

05-Jun-2011 13:18:11

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