RuneScape Forum Archive | ~~Brotherly Love~~

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Alright, things were cleared up on the subject of the dispersal of the priests, as I wasn't exactly sure what to make of the situation. Also, I see what you were trying to get at in regards to the behavior of the priests.
As for the fundamentalists, it's hard to say who's doing what in the United States. There are so many denominations of Christianity, and it's hard to tell all of them apart at some points. The doctrine of Roman Catholicism and the people who make up the religion are not people whom I would consider fundamentalists. I hear many southern baptist churches are much more strict (going so far as to ban things like dancing and drinking alcohol), but they are also much less organized than other denominations and much of it varies from parish to parish.
As a matter of fact, a discussion came up at a confirmation meeting about whether or not it was in accordance with Christian values to support LGBT rights, and I believe the answer was something along the lines of, "go right ahead, just don't become one of them," which I still feel is an ignorant standpoint in some respects, but I feel it is far more open-minded than the view has been in the past.
On the subject of the "uniting under one banner" I was not saying that religion unites everyone under one banner, I was saying that if Edward was to banish all religion he would be forcing people who may have partaken in the religion to convert to Edward's set of ideals, whether they liked it or not, and in turn "unite them under one banner." I understand that Ronny was writing all of Edward's thoughts as he imagined Edward was thinking them, and we cannot know for certain if he actually thought this, but those are my feelings in the case that he did.
I don't believe that religion is a force only for evil, but I don't believe that religion is a force only for good...
I'll continue this in the next post.

03-Jun-2011 18:04:51

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

One organization of which I know, the Catholic Relief Services, is a large group that offers humanitarian aid to countries in need, whether they are Catholic, Islamic, Pagan, Shamanistic or whatever the case may be. One particular area in which this took place was in Haiti, and there were many fundraisers in my parish to provide humanitarian aid to the areas affected by the earthquake in Haiti, and even now we are raising money for the relief effort in Japan.
You also mentioned that religion is a source for non-thinking/illogical viewpoints, but can it not be said that other things lead to such viewpoints, also? People always like to have more than they currently have, and they will work up whatever reasons they need to justify obtaining more than they currently have.
For instance, and this is on a very small scale, there are two children. Each child had two toys, but one of the children wants three as opposed to only two. This child may exploit the friendship, try to say that "they are the guest, and they deserve the toy," or one of many other silly reasons for having that third toy.
On a larger scale, look at the war in Iraq. Many said Saddam had WMDs. He didn't have WMDs. Western nations royally screwed the country over, whether we took Saddam out or not. Why did we do this? I highly doubt it was because George W. Bush and Tony Blair wanted to smite the Islamic infidels. Many believe it was to protect or make more claims in the oil in the area. No matter what the cause was, it was a pretty illogical war, and one which, ten years later, we are just getting out of.
Look at the Vietnam War. The western powers sought to fight communism, because, for whatever the hell reason it might have been, they thought capitalism was better. Fourteen years after conflict began and thousands of deaths and casualties later, South Vietnam was lost to North Vietnam, and united under one communist flag. Not much of that illogical thinking rooted from religion to me.

03-Jun-2011 18:17:03

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Moreover, the Vietnam War was more of a feud between the USSR and the USA, just as the Korean War was, and just as the Cuban Missile Crisis was, because neither side could be satisfied if the other side was becoming more powerful than they were. The Cold War was one big finger pointing match, where two giants flexed their muscles at each other for years and years, and nearly threw the world into chaos on more than one occasion as a result.
A person may act out in violence against another person simply because they feel that they are better than that person, and this may or may not stem from religion. Julius Caesar was power-hungry and in his fight to emulate Alexander the Great killed many a person. Octavius grew up to be an excellent military commander after the young adult that was beaten by Marc Antony, and he sure as all get out made Marc Antony regret it.
Edward didn't owe anything to religion, but from the way it was described, or from what I gathered from the story, the vast majority of the people of Varrock believed in the power of Saradomin, or there was an awful lot of power vested in Saradominist priests, and the priests themselves had great power, so Edward felt that he was right and the priests felt that they were right, and what it all came down to in the end was that the people who sided with Edward had the most power, and could successfully assert their position.

03-Jun-2011 18:20:09 - Last edited on 03-Jun-2011 18:25:13 by [#R4EOGJ2FY]

Englishkid62

Posts: 9,782 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

“As for the fundamentalists, it's hard to say who's doing what in the United States. There are so many denominations of Christianity, and it's hard to tell all of them apart at some points.*
--That’s right. I do not think all of them are bad. But it would be rather unrealistic of me to write down different denominations of the Saradomin religion and their attitudes. Besides, it’s not just the priests. I think I said somewhere that the 3-letter-word was censored (Which was true before you had the option to lift the filter) by the kingdom and had to be uttered in hushed voices. This is an attitude likely taken onboard by the lack of education, and or religious influences on the subject.
“I hear many southern baptist churches are much more strict (going so far as to ban things like dancing and drinking alcohol), but they are also much less organized than other denominations and much of it varies from parish to parish.*
--Then what’s all these documentaries taken recently that interviews pastors that believe scaring children with images of hell is a necessary step to save them, organizations that are trying to get biology teachers banned from teaching evolution because their creation story is the only real thing that could possibly have happened, and that there are public campaigns to screen plays that demonizes LGBT individuals?
“As a matter of fact, a discussion came up at a confirmation meeting about whether or not it was in accordance with Christian values to support LGBT rights, and I believe the answer was something along the lines of, "go right ahead, just don't become one of them," which I still feel is an ignorant standpoint in some respects, but I feel it is far more open-minded than the view has been in the past.”
--In the past, people were not as well educated. Tens of thousands of women were burnt due to a belief that they were witches. Don’t compare to the past.

04-Jun-2011 12:22:39

Englishkid62

Posts: 9,782 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

“On the subject of the "uniting under one banner" I was not saying that religion unites everyone under one banner, I was saying that if Edward was to banish all religion he would be forcing people who may have partaken in the religion to convert to Edward's set of ideals, whether they liked it or not, and in turn "unite them under one banner."”
--If Edward’s ideal was simply to say no religion and encourage free-thinking, it would harm only the churches, and they were those that helped keeping him in the prison anyway. Before *that*, however, it would not have come across Edward’s mind to have a prison run by LGBT people aiming to keep religious individuals inside. And being united under one banner of equality and human rights is better than that of a religion. I’ll elaborate more below.
“One organization of which I know, the Catholic Relief Services, is a large group that offers humanitarian aid to countries in need, whether they are Catholic, Islamic, Pagan, Shamanistic or whatever the case may be. One particular area in which this took place was in Haiti, and there were many fundraisers in my parish to provide humanitarian aid to the areas affected by the earthquake in Haiti, and even now we are raising money for the relief effort in Japan.”
--We always have people offering aid, from whatever country, whatever religion. Or no religion. Musicians also raise money by giving free concerts. We should not forget that there are good people in this world – without the influence of religion. People would do good anyway. But when religion arrives onto the scene (while I must say it turns some bad people to good again), it turns a portion of good people into bad people, opening their minds to make them susceptible to superstitions, delusions, and knowing an answer without ever finding out. These are the side effects of religion, and seem to be the basis on which religion was founded on anyway. We can’t really get rid of one while keeping the other.

04-Jun-2011 12:22:54

Englishkid62

Posts: 9,782 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

“You also mentioned that religion is a source for non-thinking/illogical viewpoints, but can it not be said that other things lead to such viewpoints, also? People always like to have more than they currently have, and they will work up whatever reasons they need to justify obtaining more than they currently have.”
--As biological world dictates, us humans are only partly rational. Greed, one could say is natural for the individual’s own survival. Animals competing for resources. Religions try to suppress these emotions by offering them some kind of reward (after life) in return for them giving up these emotions. Religion will claim that mankind will be better for it. But is the end justified by the mean? I don’t see your argument, because it’s like saying, ‘Well, I don’t see anything wrong with smoking, because there are other ways to get lung cancer as well.’ Of course there are other ways to get lung cancer, but it does not justify smoking in the first place.

04-Jun-2011 12:23:08

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Then what’s all these documentaries taken recently that interviews pastors that believe scaring children with images of hell is a necessary step to save them, organizations that are trying to get biology teachers banned from teaching evolution because their creation story is the only real thing that could possibly have happened, and that there are public campaigns to screen plays that demonizes LGBT individuals?"
If the word "pastor" is used, then it's not Roman Catholicism. The word pastor is frequently used amongst Baptist churches, which, from what I have seen, tend to be the most strict of the denominations. The word used in Catholicism is "priest," which then goes up to monsignor, then bishop, then archbishop, then cardinal, and then the pope himself. As you said, there are good people, and there are bad people, so of course there are going to be extremes on both sides of the case. I am in a community that I would describe by and far as a white christian community, and we are taught evolution and biology and everything that comes along with it. I would go so far as to say that ninety percent of the community is white, and is christian.
"People would do good anyway. But when religion arrives onto the scene (while I must say it turns some bad people to good again), it turns a portion of good people into bad people, opening their minds to make them susceptible to superstitions, delusions, and knowing an answer without ever finding out."
If you mean by "people do good anyway" before religion comes along, then yes, but not before society comes along. On top of that, could I not say the same thing about LBGT organizations? I could point the finger and say that some of them are teaching that all straight people are evil, or that simply because we do not openly suport LGBT rights that we are against LGBT rights. I suppose this goes back to your smoking example, but how can we single one out over the other?

04-Jun-2011 13:57:47

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"As biological world dictates, us humans are only partly rational. Greed, one could say is natural for the individual’s own survival. Animals competing for resources. Religions try to suppress these emotions by offering them some kind of reward (after life) in return for them giving up these emotions."
Aren't we taught anyway not to be greedy? Aren't we taught to suppress that greed and not to steal, so that we might be offered freedom as opposed to imprisonment? Even taking it one step back from stealing, we are taught that if we are kind to someone, and suppress those feelings that might be viewed as "unkind," that our neighbors will be grateful to us for having exhibited such kindness? When someone wrongs us, we, naturally, feel the need to wrong them back, perhaps in a magnitude greater than that with which they wronged us. Doesn't society suppress that, so that, once again, we might avoid imprisonment?
"If Edward’s ideal was simply to say no religion and encourage free-thinking, it would harm only the churches, and they were those that helped keeping him in the prison anyway."
But it's encouraging "free thinking" in the way that Edward feels "free thinking" is defined. I'm a religious individual. I am exercising my right in the United States (I'm not sure how it goes elsewhere) to freedom of religion and speech, and I am freely choosing to participate in religion. This "free thinking" that Edward is supposedly ushering in by banning religion is a far cry from free thinking in my mind. He can speak out against religion, but if anything, Edward is encroaching upon this "free thinking" by banning people from participating in religion. You can't immediately oust the norm and usher in the new. A prime example was the Soviet Union. Immediately after its dissolution, Boris Yeltsin immediately destroyed the socialist policies and replaced them with capitalism. The new Russia faltered, and entered a stage where nothing could be done economically.

04-Jun-2011 14:01:24 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2011 15:06:29 by [#R4EOGJ2FY]

[#R4EOGJ2FY]

Posts: 12,165 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

A funny quote on the subject of this was a joke amongst the citizens that went, "I now know that everything they told me about communism is false, and everything they told me about capitalism is true." In this situation, Edward would be our proverbial Boris Yeltsin, destroying the thing that had kept order for so long and rushing to fill the void with his "free thinking."
EDIT: On an extreme tangent, how many activity points does this reading net me? XD

04-Jun-2011 15:07:53 - Last edited on 04-Jun-2011 15:27:23 by [#R4EOGJ2FY]

Englishkid62

Posts: 9,782 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

“If the word "pastor" is used, then it's not Roman Catholicism. The word pastor is frequently used amongst Baptist churches, which, from what I have seen, tend to be the most strict of the denominations. The word used in Catholicism is "priest," which then goes up to monsignor, then bishop, then archbishop, then cardinal, and then the pope himself. As you said, there are good people, and there are bad people, so of course there are going to be extremes on both sides of the case. I am in a community that I would describe by and far as a white christian community, and we are taught evolution and biology and everything that comes along with it. I would go so far as to say that ninety percent of the community is white, and is christian.”
--Catholics/Protestant Baptists, are still parts of Christianity, stemmed from the same book. I’ve heard pastors and reverends speak on this issue – how they get there at all astounds me, and that they’re allowed to spread this poison at all also is quite shocking. Many even spoke as though white were superior to blacks. But I cannot let Catholics be exempt from my argument. The Pope himself concealed some of the most hideous crimes against children by his subordinates, and by the law, he should be imprisoned. Yet, as a dominant religious figure, he is exempt.

“If you mean by "people do good anyway" before religion comes along, then yes, but not before society comes along.”

04-Jun-2011 17:48:27

Forums

~~Brotherly Love~~

Brotherly Love