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NotFishing

NotFishing

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Westenev said :

They'll fall in line or face an exalted march on Weisshaupt


Do you want to doom the world?

Because that is how you doom the world.

Westenev said :

(something the Inquisitor could probably organise by that point).


Nah, only the Divine can declare an exalted march. Look at the candidates - do any of them look like they would start a pointless war with the Grey Wardens?

Westenev said :

I'd rather sacrifice Stroud, someone I barely know and probably won't have any impact on the game world at large.


Well... I don't want to spoil anything, but Weisshaupt may be involved somehow in the next game. The epilogue states implies some serious crap is going down there, and whoever gets sent up is caught in the middle of it. Might be better if that person is a Warden.

Also Hawke won't have much impact either. He's just a small-town local hero, and the only city he had any influence in was nearly destroyed. In contrast, Loghain/Alistair/Stroud becomes Warden Commander of Orlais. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

11-Jun-2018 16:12:38 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2018 19:12:15 by NotFishing

Inferi

Inferi

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Except Hawke was at the nexus of the explosion of conflict, and everyone is aware of that. Maybe they don't know her by name, but everyone knows of the Champion of Kirkwall. That gives her influence beyond what most people could have, and if we're going by the logic of most games or shows, one legendary hero is worth an infinite number of peons.

In contrast, the leadership of any of those three could almost certainly be substituted by someone else, and I sincerely doubt anyone in a position to inherit that spot is so incompetent that they would screw up everything in a manner far worse than any one of the available three would.

Also you're metagaming. Done in by the dubious doings of destiny.

11-Jun-2018 19:56:00

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Inferi said :

Except Hawke was at the nexus of the explosion of conflict, and everyone is aware of that. Maybe they don't know her by name, but everyone knows of the Champion of Kirkwall.


That isn't necessarily a good thing. Some might say that the Champion of Kirkwall helped start the conflict, or could have done more to prevent it.

Inferi said :

and if we're going by the logic of most games or shows, one legendary hero is worth an infinite number of peons.


Alistair and Loghain aren't peons. They're veterans of the Blight, who have faced down an Archdemon, which is one of the things you're supposedly up against. Loghain himself is a highly competent general.

Inferi said :

In contrast, the leadership of any of those three could almost certainly be substituted by someone else, and I sincerely doubt anyone in a position to inherit that spot is so incompetent that they would screw up everything in a manner far worse than any one of the available three would.


"Inquisitor, we have no one left of any significant rank."

...is literally what the Wardens tell you if Hawke survives.

And let's not forget how easily the other Wardens fell for Erimond's manipulation.

Inferi said :

Also you're metagaming.


"A Warden must help them rebuild! That's your job!"

Hawke was the one who suggested that the grey warden would take charge.

Also, "you're metagaming" is a very weak argument, since we're talking about what's best for the world in the grand scheme of things, and not just in the eyes of the Inquisitor personally. Plus, you yourself have used metagaming arguments, so the pot is calling the kettle black at this point. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

11-Jun-2018 20:37:21

Inferi

Inferi

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I'm curious where I've used a metagaming argument. Any chance you could bring it up for me so I can actually see that I'm wrong? I don't mean this in a sarcastic sense, either; I legitimately want to see what I said but have no idea where I'd even look.

NotFishing said :
"Inquisitor, we have no one left of any significant rank."

...is literally what the Wardens tell you if Hawke survives.

And let's not forget how easily the other Wardens fell for Erimond's manipulation.


If they have nobody left of sufficient rank, I don't see how they're going to be at all useful anyways. Hawke still commands more respect and influence than any Warden, and if they're so useless that losing a single person will utterly deprive them of leadership I say Hawke is still the more useful one to have around.

NotFishing said :
That isn't necessarily a good thing. Some might say that the Champion of Kirkwall helped start the conflict, or could have done more to prevent it.

And some might say that the Wardens are to blame for a lot more. They don't get listened to anyways, and don't really have any influence at all if anything we've seen is an indication.

There's always going to be people against something. What's important is how many people see something positive, or worth respecting, in whatever it is.


I also still don't get why you hate Cassandra so much, since I agree with West that she's a great character.

Oh, and what I said about the legendary heroes being worth infinite soldiers was more a joke than anything else. Done in by the dubious doings of destiny.

11-Jun-2018 22:59:47 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2018 23:00:52 by Inferi

Westenev

Westenev

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Y'know, I almost agree with Solas. The Grey Wardens as a whole are incompetent, potentially corrupt (hinted at in origins), and lack resources and influence outside of Weisshaupt (which may or may not have troubles of its own). The two times they are saved (origins and inquisition) was due to the efforts of "new" wardens who were always stuck on the outskirts of the organisation.

(I admit, Alistair and the Warden-Comander aren't new by awakening or inquisition, but they were still stuck on the back end of the organisation).

That being said, Solas does have a HUGE hate-boner for the Grey Wardens. Mentioning their name alone seems to get you his disaproval.
Noth
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11-Jun-2018 23:09:14 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2018 23:10:59 by Westenev

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Inferi said :

I'm curious where I've used a metagaming argument.

Inferi said :

and if we're going by the logic of most games or shows, one legendary hero is worth an infinite number of peons.


---

Inferi said :

If they have nobody left of sufficient rank, I don't see how they're going to be at all useful anyways.


Loghain/Alistair/Stroud is that person of significant rank.

---

Inferi said :

Hawke still commands more respect and influence than any Warden


But how much respect and influence does he command when dealing with the Wardens themselves? None.

---

Inferi said :

and if they're so useless that losing a single person will utterly deprive them of leadership I say Hawke is still the more useful one to have around.


Having only one leader left doesn't automatically make them useless.

Also, it's not just about what they can do for you. It's also about what you can do for them. Remember, the Wardens need to stay strong they can stop the Blights. Leaving them without leadership does not help in that regard.

---

Inferi said :

I also still don't get why you hate Cassandra so much, since I agree with West that she's a great character.


She's highly overrated, all of her flaws are glossed over both in-universe and out-of-universe, and she possesses very little depth. Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

11-Jun-2018 23:10:51 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2018 23:11:03 by NotFishing

Westenev

Westenev

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Who's to say a Warden stops a blight rather than delays it or makes it worse? It's a pretty big assumption. Me personally? I think the Dread Wolf knows something about the matter that we don't.

EDIT: It's always possible the Warden-Commander will come back to lead the Wardens once they finish their mission. :P Plus, though everyone writes Alistair off as dead, you can kill *most* of the returning cast from Origins without consequence. If anything, I think we wrote him off a little too quickly.


NotFishing said :
Inferi said :

Hawke still commands more respect and influence than any Warden


But how much respect and influence does he command when dealing with the Wardens themselves? None.

I don't think this is true. Hell, Hawke probably has more experience with the deep roads than some modern wardens do.
Noth
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11-Jun-2018 23:16:46 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2018 23:27:45 by Westenev

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