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xox Lola xox

xox Lola xox

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This argument about the definition of whether this is a form of gambling or not is important. It is about the responsibility of the companies, because on one level EA could just say on FIFA, “Just buy the players you want”. You would earn coins during the game or you can buy coins and use them to purchase players that you want at face value. We spoke to Jagex, and a lot of the way its loot box works is you are given the option to buy stuff at a set value and you buy it or you don’t buy it. But this mechanism within FIFA, it is gamified because you are taking a risk, you are gambling—big G or small g—on what you are going to get.

23-Aug-2019 18:37:55

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
xox Lola xox said :
There has been relatively widespread reporting. The written evidence the Gambling Commission has sent in to the Committee as well makes clear the existence of the secondary market, where people are trading for cash items that have been acquired through in-game purchases. The gaming companies have a policy saying they do not want people to do this, but it does not mean to say they are effective at stopping them doing it. Well, they will do it when they catch them, but it does not mean to say that they can stop this happening. But the in-game purchases themselves I think have value, so I would say they have money’s worth because people are spending money to acquire these players, then in addition to that, they can also then sell them. There are also examples of people selling other forms of in-game purchases as well and people making very large amounts of money for rare skins for characters in different games and tools and weapons and so on.


On Page 40, Post 8, I already clearly quoted UK Parliament's responses:

There are plenty of ministers in the DCMS to tell you:

"Loot boxes are a means of purchasing items, not an additional financial reward. They can't be traded offline for money. We don't think it is true to say loot boxes are gambling"

"You need the evidence as a justification for taking action, particularly if you're talking about regulation""


That's what the UK LAW said. No need and utterly useless to go in circle when they said clearly loot boxes is not gambling. :D :D :D

23-Aug-2019 18:43:04

xox Lola xox

xox Lola xox

Posts: 404 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
xox Lola xox said :
There has been relatively widespread reporting. The written evidence the Gambling Commission has sent in to the Committee as well makes clear the existence of the secondary market, where people are trading for cash items that have been acquired through in-game purchases. The gaming companies have a policy saying they do not want people to do this, but it does not mean to say they are effective at stopping them doing it. Well, they will do it when they catch them, but it does not mean to say that they can stop this happening. But the in-game purchases themselves I think have value, so I would say they have money’s worth because people are spending money to acquire these players, then in addition to that, they can also then sell them. There are also examples of people selling other forms of in-game purchases as well and people making very large amounts of money for rare skins for characters in different games and tools and weapons and so on.


That was what the people who make the law said
:D :D :D :D :D

23-Aug-2019 18:48:12

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
xox Lola xox said :
xox Lola xox said :
There has been relatively widespread reporting. The written evidence the Gambling Commission has sent in to the Committee as well makes clear the existence of the secondary market, where people are trading for cash items that have been acquired through in-game purchases. The gaming companies have a policy saying they do not want people to do this, but it does not mean to say they are effective at stopping them doing it. Well, they will do it when they catch them, but it does not mean to say that they can stop this happening. But the in-game purchases themselves I think have value, so I would say they have money’s worth because people are spending money to acquire these players, then in addition to that, they can also then sell them. There are also examples of people selling other forms of in-game purchases as well and people making very large amounts of money for rare skins for characters in different games and tools and weapons and so on.


That was what the people who make the law said
:D :D :D :D :D


First, this is not law. Second, it is about real world trading and skin gambling, not loot boxes at all. Get your facts strict first. :D :D :D

23-Aug-2019 18:53:48

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
xox Lola xox said :
75 Key Package (+ 10 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

200 Key Package (+ 20 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

450 Key Package (+ 50 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

what's this btw

slightly less speculation here

wonder why


Please talk about laws and regulation if you want to continue to discuss on topic in this thread. No laws say anything about whatever promotion you quoted, especially you just mentioned offsite skin gambling and now suddenly changed the topic to Jagex's current promotion, again without any way for players to cash out for real money.

This is my last response to your ever changing off topic comments. Thanks.

23-Aug-2019 18:57:15

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23-Aug-2019 18:59:22

Torgi Nudho

Torgi Nudho

Posts: 76 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(1/3) In my humble opinion, any form of gambling (directly or indirectly transferrable into real life value) should be regulated by all governments.

To whoever used the ‘law out of its time/place’-excuse, ‘they are only targeting illegal gambling’, ‘TH won’t be categorised as gambling’, and to whoever used the country Belgium as an example by stating ‘no actions have been seen in Belgium’, ‘nothing has been regulated’, ‘no actions have been seen so far’, and so on;

- The Belgian Gaming Commission and Belgian legislative institutions clearly describe any form of ‘loot boxes’-gambling in article 2, 1° of the law of the 7th of May 1999 on the games of chance, betting, gambling establishments and the protection of players

(source: BS 30 december 1999: Kansspelwet 7 mei 1999)

- Long (and boring) story short: ‘gambling’/’game of chance’ implies: stakes being made, potential profit and chance as a part of the ‘transaction’. Gaming/staking mechanism such as treasure hunter are a part of ‘social gaming’ ; since profit can be of any nature (such as rare skins and credits -even useable on other platforms)

(sources:“Defining Game Mechanics”, Game Studies 2008, vol. 8, afl. 2, http://gamestudies.org/0802/articles/sicart and Art. 2, °1 Kansspelwet 7 mei 1999; RvS ‘Gamepoint’, 29 oktober 2015, nr. 232.752).

- ‘Chance’ or ‘coincidence’-factor: even if this is only an incidental element, will be seen as gambling.

(source: "Een commentaar op de wijziging van de Kansspelwet”, RW 2009-10, (1330) 1330; P.J. VALGAEREN))

23-Aug-2019 20:31:54 - Last edited on 23-Aug-2019 20:54:48 by Torgi Nudho

Torgi Nudho

Torgi Nudho

Posts: 76 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
(2/3)
- To be able to host a gambling website one would need a license (regulation), which only the Belgian gaming commission may grant. These licenses are currently only approved for individuals who are operating a physical gambling establishment . Hence why Belgian players can no longer open loot boxes received in-game on CSGO for example.

(source: Art. 43/8 §1 Kansspelwet 7 mei 1999)

Personal note: this will probably change/receive an update in the near future.

- The Belgian Parliament discusses gambling addictions on a regular bases

(to name a well aged one: ‘Wetsontwerp tot wijziging van de wet van 7 mei 1999 op de kansspelen, de kansspelinrichtingen en de bescherming van de spelers […], Parl.St. Kamer 2008-2009, DOC 52K1992/001, 12-13, 17, 38, 44-45, 124-126’)

- The Belgian Constitutional Court believes that games of chance lead to exploiting human weakness, which on its own can have devastating consequences, both legal and illegal.

(source: GwH 8 november 2000, nr. 113/2000, BS 2000, 2670)

Personal note: so it is pretty safe to say stricter regulations are coming soon.

- The Belgian Gaming commission attempts to limit the addictive element as much as possible (source: Gaming commission report 2016); both legal and illegal gambling .

- Companies/individuals can be fined up to 1,6 million € and receive a 10 year sentence whenever minors are/were disadvantaged (half for adults being disadvantaged).

(Source: Belgian Gambling Commission)

23-Aug-2019 20:31:58 - Last edited on 23-Aug-2019 20:56:50 by Torgi Nudho

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