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Mega Duck
Nov Member 2013

Mega Duck

Posts: 3,048 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I agree with everything 'I Lack Heart' is saying.

You would have to be an absolute idiot to not understand the simularity between TH, Lootboxes and gambling. It's the usual couple who always disagree with everything, probably to farm post count, so it might be best to just ignore.

You pay real cash for the chance to receive something good, which doesn't always result in your favour. If you have bad luck, you are tempted to buy more keys for another chance, simularly to putting money in a bandit hoping it will drop. I can definitely see how this could be a gateway to real gambling in the real world.
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23-Nov-2018 06:15:51

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"‘Skins’ are in-game items, used within some of the most popular video game titles. They provide cosmetic alterations to a player’s weapons, avatar or equipment used in the game. Skins betting sites allow video gamers to wager cosmetic items rewarded in-game or purchased for real money on a digital marketplace, accessible from the UK for several years.

The Gambling Commission takes the view that the ability to convert in-game items to cash,or to trade them (for other items of value) means they attain a real-world value and become articles of money or money’s worth. Where gambling facilities are offered to British consumers, including with the use of in-game items that can be converted into cash or traded (for items of value), a gambling licence is required. Tackling operators making gambling facilities available to children is one of the Gambling Commission’s priorities. This has been demonstrated by action taken against unlicensed websites providing facilities for gambling using in-game items as methods for payment."


https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-People-and-Gambling-2018-Report.pdf

This is What the UK governments consider gambling. Whether you are an idiot or not, it is still the same LAW.

Clearly, if a game developer lets their players to bet their virtual items in an offsite gambling site, it is considered illegal gambling by the UK governments. The virtual items don't have to come from loot boxes. It can be a Twisted Bow dropped by mobs.

Jagex doesn't allow TH items to be cashed out therefore TH is not gambling per the UK Gambling Commision. However, if Jagex turns a blind eye on A Gambler betting a Twisted Bow not from TH through a gambling site or exploits in Duel Arena, it is gambling.

Whether you are an absolute idiot or somebody just want to farm posts doesn't change the LAW because it is the real world freaking LAW that even absolute idiots need to abide to.

23-Nov-2018 15:07:28

Mega Duck
Nov Member 2013

Mega Duck

Posts: 3,048 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mr Brushie said :
Why do you put a " :D " face after every paragraph you make?

He likes to put 3 sometimes, one of the many reasons i never read his posts lol.

@OP
I think if the law did come into effect, Jagex would find a sneaky way around it, such as age verification, then not allowing underage indeviduals to participate in gambling activities apart from those that are already 18+ which i'd guess will still be a huge majority.

Interestingly, we did have to verify our age earlier this year. I wonder if one of the reasons was to secretly prepare for an upcoming change of law, if it was ever to happen lol.
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23-Nov-2018 18:53:02 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2018 19:03:06 by Mega Duck

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mega Duck said :
Mr Brushie said :
Why do you put a " :D " face after every paragraph you make?

He likes to put 3 sometimes, one of the many reasons i never read his posts lol.

@OP
I think if the law did come into effect, Jagex would find a sneaky way around it, such as age verification, then not allowing underage indeviduals to participate in gambling activities apart from those that are already 18+ which i'd guess will still be a huge majority.

Interestingly, we did have to verify our age earlier this year. I wonder if one of the reasons was to secretly prepare for an upcoming change of law, if it was ever to happen lol.

The "law" has always been in effect. I already quoted it in my last post. TH does not create real world value for any of its items, it is not gambling according to UK governments. Nothing new whatsoever.

The "age verification" earlier this year was for the GDPR requirement according to Jmod Stevew.

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?278,279,741,66009561

23-Nov-2018 19:33:46 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2018 19:41:56 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"The UK Gambling Commission has not connected loot boxes with gambling... Despite what's been reported elsewhere."


https://www.pcgamer.com/the-uk-gambling-commission-has-not-connected-loot-boxes-with-gambling/

We know the tide has absolutely changed even among the journalists who once were in denial that governments do not connect loot boxes to gambling. At least some of them have come to the rationale that real money trading and 3rd party gambling sites are the problems, not loot boxes. :D

25-Nov-2018 20:15:10 - Last edited on 25-Nov-2018 20:16:47 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Never RIP said :
I think lootboxes help prevent problem gambling... Why? Because we've all put money in and it's never paid off.

You may not always win things you want the most with TH but you always win something. It is not like you stake your Twisted Bow in Duel Arena but may lose it often.

It is true that TH among other loot boxes actually prevent real world gambling. For instance, the Aussie Government even have this remark posted on their official eSafety website:

"Research into the impacts on young people of gambling-like elements in games and simulated gambling is in its early stages. However, a recent study suggests that for some children, playing social casino games leads to an increase in gambling activity, possibly because these games normalise gambling for them or inflate their confidence of winning in a real gambling scenario.
While for other children, it can act as a substitute, reducing their interest in real gambling.
"


https://www.esafety.gov.au/education-resources/iparent/staying-safe/online-gambling

To be more specific in Jagex own games, for instance, when a player puts his money on TH (a kind of loot boxes) he is not really gambling his real money. He is just paying for entertainment like Baseball Cards. He always win something, and more importantly, it is all legal. However, if there was no TH, the same player might wager his money or virtual items like a Twisted Bow on a 3rd party gambling site. Now that a big no-no both to Jagex and the real world governments because it is not just violation of Jagex's EULA but also illegal gambling according to almost every governments in the real world.

That said, TH, while some may consider "gambling" simulation, is far better than real world gambling like skin gambling or wagering real money in real world casinos.

02-Dec-2018 21:13:29

Never RIP

Never RIP

Posts: 1,418 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
^ no. U're absolutely wrong.

Bonds and th is NOT AT ALL like baseball cards. If u buy baseball cards, u own them, and can trade or sell them however u want irl - they're your cards!

None of runescpae belongs to us players.

Furthermore, ur example of the Australian government is complete rubbish. Run escape is not an online casino game (real, or fake like Facebook casinos - those things should be closed down) which regularly pay off much more often with extra features, free spins etc. Compared to an actual casino and as such, playing these games give u the beliefs u can/will win much much more often at the real casino (that's what the article says... Nothing to do with runescape). These games create problem gambling. The targeted games in the article has NOTHING to do with rs.

Finally, how do u know jagex is against 3rd party gambling sites that use rs items as chips MORE THAN the FACT it is law - maybe jagex is just following the law? If it were not illegal, we might not need a 3rd party site to do so - if it were legal, jagex might well add a casino type link on the rs main page where u log in an even walk around the casino with ur rs account anv gamble rs items for "cash bonds"... And when used, instead of charging ur bank, it deposits into ur bank. But jagex can't do that because the law says no and not because jagex says no. Skillet? Skill no.

So much moot.

03-Dec-2018 06:23:36 - Last edited on 03-Dec-2018 09:08:21 by Never RIP

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
ESRB said loot boxes are like Baseball Cards. The UK Gambling Commission agreed with ESRB. Tell the UK governments they are wrong if you want to, but don't forget you are not the Governments or the self-regulation agencies of the video game industry. :D

“We don’t believe it does [fit the definition of gambling],” Vance said. “We think it’s a fun way to acquire virtual items to enhance users’ experiences. There’s obviously an element of surprise, like with baseball cards. But you always get something, there’s no way to cash out, and you can complete a game without buying a loot box. So there are a lot of different factors where we just don’t think this qualifies for either of the gambling descriptors.” - ESRB


Since apparently you know
"None of runescpae belongs to us players"
, why is it a problem if "TH never paid off"? You can pay for a SGS cosmetic items or bankslot but you still don't own anyting. You can pay for a year's Runescape membership and earn a lot of gp and virtual items in the game but you also never own any of these pixels. Your payments toward membership, bonds, runescoins etc never paid off neither, just never. TH is not the only thing that never "paid off".

I never said TH is gambling to begin with. The Australian Governments declared loot boxes "gambling" according to their antiquated laws, but they added loot boxes are not illegal gambling under most circumstances. They constructed a eSafety webpage to clarify their stances between "gambling simulations" (games of chance like loot boxes) and real world casino gambling (skin gamblings). Again, if you don't agree with them, go ask the Australian Governments. :D

Offsite gambling with Jagex virtual items are not just illegal in the real world, but also real world trading and violate the user agreement (at least for OSRS) between the players and Jagex as per Mod Ayiza of the OSRS team:

03-Dec-2018 18:02:00

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