RuneScape Forum Archive | Why Is Bilrach Not Stronger?

Hazeel

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Maiden China said :
There's no way tiffy's going to be beating one mahjarrat,

Hence why he didn't beat them. He just surived. Nothing more.

Maiden China said :
that being said, I doubt lucien was 'feared' before he got the staff. Everyone seems to think of him as being a weakling who has a few special skills that make him useful

OK so...you think the tier list is bogus....?

Maiden China said :
That you think Tiffy is a 'super-human' is laughable. He's an old man,

So is WOM. So is Saradomin. Nomad. Trailborn. Zenevivia. In fact, it feels like most of the humans that were ever worth crap are elderly. If you want to extend past humans, I can go on about Hreidmar and Hazelmere too.

Now this is a fictional world and I admit I'm not the most genre savvy person out there, but a pattern I notice in fictional worlds is that age usually doesn't mean much in terms of power loss as it would in the real world.

Maiden China said :
skilled for a temple knight, maybe, but weaker than he used to be and he was never a great warrior

1) And this is based on...?

2) Then why is he fighting a Mahjarrat while the young knights--the "best of the best" are fighting the cronies?

Maiden China said :
gameplay is not lore and shouldn't be taken as such.

So what's in the game isn't lore...and you don't like the other of game source either. So uhhh....what is lore? Your headcanons? Actually, let me get back to one of your older quotes.

Maiden China said :
that being said, I doubt lucien was 'feared' before he got the staff.

Where did you base this off of? The gameplay? That's apparently not lore. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

20-Sep-2016 04:15:17

Chaos Lupus

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@ Darkest

Game mechanics are clearly very different than canon. You can't trust everything that's visualized, otherwise people would be capable of taking multiple arrows to the face, survive being hacked to pieces, etc. And combat levels/damage would be ridiculous, as we have plenty of cases where NPC's like foxes are stronger than grizzly bears. Also, several mods have outright stated that they're two completely separate things.

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Sep-2016 05:03:55

Hazeel

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Chaos Lupus said :
Game mechanics are clearly very different than canon. You can't trust everything that's visualized, otherwise people would be capable of taking multiple arrows to the face, survive being hacked to pieces, etc.

Next you'll have men turning into wolves and Gods blasting kamehamehas at each other!

...But seriously, it's a fantasy world, we should treat it like life. Power levels are more prevelant in RS than DBZ at this point and there's so much ridiculousness that would never pass in the real world that of course it's not going to be realistic.

In this case, our explanation is that prayer magically protects us from arrows and melee weapons. You're not going to have a good time if you try to find a realistic way to explain that. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

20-Sep-2016 05:34:22

Chaos Lupus

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Hazeel said :
Chaos Lupus said :
Game mechanics are clearly very different than canon. You can't trust everything that's visualized, otherwise people would be capable of taking multiple arrows to the face, survive being hacked to pieces, etc.

Next you'll have men turning into wolves and Gods blasting kamehamehas at each other!

...But seriously, it's a fantasy world, we should treat it like life. Power levels are more prevelant in RS than DBZ at this point and there's so much ridiculousness that would never pass in the real world that of course it's not going to be realistic.

In this case, our explanation is that prayer magically protects us from arrows and melee weapons. You're not going to have a good time if you try to find a realistic way to explain that.

There's a difference between fantasy tropes being used to benefit the story and breaking basic laws of nature and physics just for the sake of it. In this case, the latter isn't necessary, as there is a distinction between canon occurrences and gameplay mechanics. We're not actually carrying around and eating twenty bowls of soup in the middle of fighting for our lives.

Prayer can canonically increase your potency in combat, that's very different to canonically taking a hundred arrows to the face.

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Sep-2016 05:49:09

Maiden China

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Hazeel said :
your stuff.

my guess is that tiffy ingame represents both himself and a group of skilled temple knights and they're taking casualties while fighting the mahjarrat
either that or he's not fighting them at all

I think parts of the tier list are innacurate, but that's actually stated in the preface for the tier list anyway... that it's 'largely subjective'

you're mentioning mages. and a dude who eats soul power for breakfast... not warriors. tiffy is a melee fighter and melee fighters dont get better with age

it's based on both logic and the fact that you'd never heard of tiffy being a great warrior. if he was on par with arrav or torva, you'd have heard about it

I dont take pure or half-gameplay as lore. if it deals with hitpoints, it's not lore. if it's total nonsense, it's unlikely to be lore.

i'm basing it off how hes spoken of during the curse of zaros miniquest... "Ha, when I think of someone like Lucien struggling to lift a blade, in some ways I was even their better!" and they need him almost solely to put a spell on the staff... something an otherwise unknown wizard was also able to do
zem's notes state he's getting powerful of late... implying he wasn't that powerful before (admittedly zem's notes may not be that recent, and the tiers are pretty recent)

that being said, I think now that lucien isn't as weak as I imagined and i may have misremembered some things. Unless some mod went back in and changed some things since the last time i checked... they do that sometimes

another thing I would like to add... you say we beat khazard pretty early in our adventuring career and I say I only dared fight him after beating vorago several times. There's not much of an indication of how powerful the player was when they started that quest

one more thing... I think it was you who made me realize I was wrong about arrav vs zemoregal fight a few months ago. So yes, I am wrong sometimes

Carn

20-Sep-2016 05:53:30

Jul

2020

Dennorak

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As someone who just recently did ROTM, didn't Akrisae help Tiffy in the fight? I seem to recall that being the case. It probably still underpowers Hazeel but it makes it less unbelievable.

Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

20-Sep-2016 06:04:31

Maiden China

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Dennorak said :
As someone who just recently did ROTM, didn't Akrisae help Tiffy in the fight? I seem to recall that being the case. It probably still underpowers Hazeel but it makes it less unbelievable. I did rotm ages ago. before you fight him as a wight, akrisae doesnt seem that strong and I have a feeling his strength as a wight was added by sliske (or just by jmods who forgot that the barrows brothers were powerful before they were wights and didnt want you fighting a level 13 monk)
I cant seem to find it now, but I was under the impression tiffy was fighting hazeel and khazard together

I understand that not all the rules can be the same in real life as in runescape, but I do want as many of them to match up as possible. Like... gravity exists, people need to eat, sleep, weather, physics, old men being weaker than they were as young men Carn

20-Sep-2016 06:13:40

Chaos Lupus

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@ Xiaoqing

"it's based on both logic and the fact that you'd never heard of tiffy being a great warrior. if he was on par with arrav or torva, you'd have heard about it"

^ Not necessarily. The events surrounding people often play a larger role in their notoriety than their actual skill. Prior to RotM, Tiffy was never in a position where he'd have to play a vital role in protecting his city against a Mahjarrat. Arrav also has the added bonus of being acknowledged for his feats that allowed for the founding of Varrock, and Torva for fighting directly under Nex (although Torva has most likely been forgotten by the vast majority of the human population).

"i'm basing it off how hes spoken of during the curse of zaros miniquest... "Ha, when I think of someone like Lucien struggling to lift a blade, in some ways I was even their better!"'

^ Lucien has been depicted as physically weak but magically powerful. That quote also comes from an individual who was delusional at the time.

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Sep-2016 06:14:10 - Last edited on 20-Sep-2016 06:14:45 by Chaos Lupus

Maiden China

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Chaos Lupus said :
^ Lucien has been depicted as physically weak but magically powerful. That quote also comes from an individual who was delusional at the time. youre right, yes. I'm wrong. don't have any cookies, sorry :/

you're right about the 'events surrounding' yes, but torva and arrav are practically gods made flesh while you've never heard of tiffy having any particularly extraordinary skill in combat... he would have fought against many knights in training and some of them would have mentioned that, I think

I do have a bit of a personal bias... I want him to be physically weak (although not outrageously so... just... comaprable to the average temple knight) because I think it makes him a more interesting character. Having characters that are both really smart and really good (really, really good) at combat isn't... a good plan. Having some is fine, but... not all the time. Carn

20-Sep-2016 06:44:37

Chaos Lupus

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Maiden China said :
Chaos Lupus said :
^ Lucien has been depicted as physically weak but magically powerful. That quote also comes from an individual who was delusional at the time. youre right, yes. I'm wrong. don't have any cookies, sorry :/

you're right about the 'events surrounding' yes, but torva and arrav are practically gods made flesh while you've never heard of tiffy having any particularly extraordinary skill in combat... he would have fought against many knights in training and some of them would have mentioned that, I think

I do have a bit of a personal bias... I want him to be physically weak (although not outrageously so... just... comaprable to the average temple knight) because I think it makes him a more interesting character. Having characters that are both really smart and really good (really, really good) at combat isn't... a good plan. Having some is fine, but... not all the time.

They're certainly exceptionally skilled individuals, but I wouldn't go nearly so far as to claim them "practically gods made flesh". Arrav's greatest feats in combat, as far as we're aware, are basically besting a large number of goblins and going toe to toe with Zemouregal, who he was no match for while still living. Torva bested a pack of ripper demons and was part of a surprise attack on what had been rebuilt of Flamtaer. Other than that, we don't have much in the way of specific instances by which to judge their capabilities.

The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Sep-2016 07:04:26

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Why Is Bilrach Not Stronger?