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Hazeel

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If it hasn't been made obvious at this point...it's always been individuals, not armies, that control wars. There's always that one guy (or small group), even if it's not a God or a Mahjarrat, that makes the rest of his/her flock look like the fodder they are.

Arrav, WOM, Carnillean, WG, Barrows, Tiffy, and so on. This is why the lack of Zarosians is almost inconsequential. It's only the important ones that ever mattered. Losing Sliske or even Jhallen is a larger blow than losing entire armies.

As far as the fodder go, however, humans in particular are a joke. I'd say 5 vyrewatch could go conquer a settlement of them easily unless someone significant showed up to turn it around. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

21-Mar-2018 00:19:46

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
If it hasn't been made obvious at this point...it's always been individuals, not armies, that control wars. There's always that one guy (or small group), even if it's not a God or a Mahjarrat, that makes the rest of his/her flock look like the fodder they are.

Precisely. Drakan's cannon fodder might have been better than Saradomins, but they were still cannon fodder. All it takes is a small group of competent people and Drakan's advantage over the Saradominist forces becomes a much larger disadvantage.

21-Mar-2018 01:36:22

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
If 6-7 tough people is all it takes to turn a landslide victory into a crushing defeat for Drakan's forces, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were all that powerful in the first place (just that the people he was fighting against were embarrassingly incompetent at defending themselves (or just gave up once the tough people fell).

The main reason for the tough people's armies failing was that, without their leadership, the troops lacked the morale to cohesively counterattack the vyres’ overwhelmingly superior forces. It was a matter of good morale and well organized formation. When they lead the way, those armies gladly joined them and could thus advance towards the Salve River. I already stressed and affirmed the importance of hierarchy in Saradominist armies in previous posts.

Even the best organized armies- aside from brothers'- lacked essential cavalry and air force (like centaur and Icyene), to cover the slow, immobile, however solid defensive formations.

In the end, thanks to depending on good leadership, they did not "give up", though continuously counterattacked until the Salve River was imbued with highly forbidden and powerful blood magic, having some reserves left behind, while the rest ruthlessly kept charging and fought close to enemy lines on the Misthalanian side, with six of the seven priestly warriors dying in a last stand, fortunately increasing the magical barrier’s power.

Alas, I wouldn’t call it a defeat, as both sides returned to their initial frontiers- hostilities were merely put at a hold by the luck they had, by desperately using that blood magic to block access to the masses. Let's agree that if the lead armies could not reach the salve, and if they didn’t succeed in imbuing the Salve with the spell, the vyres would not have stopped at those seven warriors, and would have kept on endlessly terrorizing the Misthalanian people. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

21-Mar-2018 22:32:33

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
They won Hallowvale by kidnapping King Ascertes, they beat the brothers by making a deal with Sliske, they keep the humans under control with a glimmer of hope. Subtlety and subterfuge has always been the Drakan's strength (from their ascension to power on Vampyrium to Vanescula scheming to assassinate her siblings), not military might or combat prowess.

In other words, Lowerniel understood the art of war in terms of the exact sciences, in which by means of calculation he worked out simple formulas for his offensive operations, operating his Morytanian armies, however feeble, in great depth. His plans covered pretty much every stage of an offensive .

For example, Drakan drew attention to the fact that it would no bad thing to have special forces for diverting fighting enemy units. His military art was as follows: as a considerable brute force was required to fight the bulk of the enemy on the center of the front, inflicting considerable damage on them, at least for a long enough time for them to be distracted.

Lowerniel's specialized units would thus expose the enemy’s rear, disorganizing their lines and striking fear in those left behind, creating a strikingly difficult situation for the military and civilians, forced to go into retreat or surrender. He played the Saradominists' reliance on hierarchy multiple times, with enormous success and without many losses, showing how sharp Drakan really was.

Of course, in critical situations - and war consists of these - Drakan’s reserves went into battle to help suppress any remaining resistance, while his specialized forces were thrown on the edge of the battle area to distract the formation, having expertise at luring and striking the enemy from above (airborne) or from their sidelines (flanks). The latter was what the other monsters under Drakan’s control were used for, especially in tough situations, when the time was unfavorable for his costly vyres to show up. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

21-Mar-2018 22:37:12 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2018 23:00:02 by Byzantinist

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
As far as the fodder go, however, humans in particular are a joke. I'd say 5 vyrewatch could go conquer a settlement of them easily unless someone significant showed up to turn it around.

Those jokes you speak of pushed the vyres back to the Salve River, even without any aerial superiority. The vyres blasted those humans with all they had, werewolves, ghouls and their own race supporting their ground forces while being able to strike humans from a distance.

The suddenness of Drakan’s attack on Misthalin had a stunning effect on the organization of human soldiers- weaker and slower than the attacking vyres- bringing a chain of catastrophes in its wake. Again, the lack of a Misthalinian air force made the vyres difficult to intercept, especially in greater numbers, so any trenches or ditches in the front area were useless, compelling the infantry to withdraw quickly.

Withdrawal meant that enemy resources and defensive lines were abandoned close by the borders. Withdrawal meant that the command had lost control, and did not know what was happening with its troops any quicker than the vyres who then attacked them with great speed and maneuverability. The Misthalanian humans lost crucial time for making decisive decisions, while many troops could not be given orders at all, or ones which were completely out of keeping with the current battle situation.

The seven priests would lead those weak and slow human armies into battle, significantly allowing them to slowly advance together to the Salve, where they made their last stand. Only then could they finally use the blood magic to block the vyres for good, though not without dying in the process. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

21-Mar-2018 22:41:11

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Again if 6-7 people can turn Drakan's easy victory into a crushing defeat or their removal do the opposite and this happens repeatedly, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were very threatening.

If vyres were not threatening, what were those vast armies hiding from behind the Salve? The huge amount of Morytanian space?

Saradominists were so threatened that they had to resort to Mahjarrat and blood magicks against Drakan’s forces to even make a chance at advancing, or blocking the enemy armies entirely. They needed entire armies to fight alongside the small powerfully equipped leading group, in order to cover the vast chunk of rough territory.

They also had to form extensive lines without their flanks being exposed, as a secondary requirement for success, which the Barrows more than gladly compensated for. Despite this, their master was informed of Morytania’s rough terrain, so it wouldn’t surprise me the optimal attack route was planned by Saradomin and communicated to his strategoi.

Keep in mind that the prime weakness of the Third Age Saradominist infantry soldiers were attacks from above and the flanks. The army of the brothers failed to advance without the brothers protecting flanks, preventing them from outmaneuvering and advancing on Drakan’s hordes, however .

The phalangites did not lack military training, killing monsters was their expertise compared to other human Saradominist formations, able to temporarily defend themselves against the ground forces alone, fending themselves off for days on end, without many dying. They fell back, while burying the brothers, for they lost their only available mobile shock troops.

In short, defeat was imminent as their flanks became exposed by monsters luring them out of the formation. For the rest, the phalanx were pretty much invulnerable to the hordes. They could just not advance, without the Barrows, cavalry (centaur), or an air force (Icyene). Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

21-Mar-2018 22:51:48 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2018 22:52:37 by Byzantinist

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Pushed them back...? The vyres weren't attacking, they were defending. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

22-Mar-2018 01:09:45

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Pushed them back...? The vyres weren't attacking, they were defending.

Alright, then how did the attack on Misthalin by the vyres come about? I'm quite sure Saradominists were defending their own invaded territory from endless hordes of monsters. You know, those packs of wolves, vyres and ghouls who endlessly kept counterattacking the priests. Now, think wings- big wings- able to fly past infantry units' heads to strike deeply.

Some ways for a vyrewatch to operate are:

A) to stay put where they are, if being surrounded or exposed due to ranged attacks, like that small valley in Silverea, or;

B) If they really want, they can -when freely able to- fly away and counterrattack , again and again.

I'll just let the quotes from Blood of the Covenant and the Sleeping Seven speak for themselves. A static Misthalanian defence against assaulting vyres was mentionned in them:

'Though many men did slow its passage to what is now called Varrock, none did manage to halt its progress proper

Some odd collection of priestly advocates and pious followers of brave virtue stood forth to steel the hearts of the village fighters and town militias, the last defence against the evil .

Rabble of Misthalanian defence started to bite and the tide of evil from Morytania became smashed and torn on their pikes and staves.

Our enemies could come from either side.

We know all too well that to hold back the darnkness can often require a darkness of its own.

Essiandar has seen sign of a vampyric brood approaching our position .

The vampyres shall fall upon us soon. We must hurry.

It took every ounce of our strength and our faith to hold back a tide of enemies long enough to complete our incantations.

A new, smaller force of vyres has arrived.

The vyres' attack on our position and killing of my friends has only strengthened the ritual.'

So tell me, are we missing something? Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

22-Mar-2018 14:35:43 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2018 14:42:35 by Byzantinist

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