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Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
That...doesn't make any sense. So...

1) The only way Drakan could defend his land from Saradominist invaders who had lost their most powerful race (Icyene) and their most powerful warriors (Barrows Brothers) was by forfeiting the protection Zamorak gave him in interest of maintaining allied/subserviant land during the war?

2) And the only way Zamorak, with an army that's a fraction of the Zarosian empire, could lose Forinthry was if Drakan left him? Even though he was facing a Tier 3 God, and two Tier 4 Gods, with one wielding the siphon (Armadyl) and the other wielding the Stone of Jas (Saradomin) as well as a gifted follower who could endlessly revive his fallen.

I can't make sense out of #1, but if #2 is truly the case then clearly I vastly underestimated Zamorak's intellect.

You are looking at it a bit oddly. Think of it this way:

If Zamorak and Drakan were still allies, then we'd expect to either have seen Drakan's territory fall prior to Zamorak being forced back to Forinthry (being a target of the joint alliance against Zamorak and actively aiding him), or that when Forinthry had fallen Zamorak would retreat back to his stronghold that had clearly weathered the God Wars to that point.

This would appear to indicate that while Saradomin opposed and fought both Drakan and Zamorak, the two were not aiding each other. And as Zamorak possessed the Catalyst, more territory, and a larger military, Saradomin clearly focussed more on the fight on that front (particularly when it became clear that assaults on Drakan's territory were failing whilst his attention was divided fighting both fronts).

Drakan kept Hallowvale by being a less important, while still tenacious, target by not being allied with Zamorak.

Zamorak lost Forinthry by the sheer amount of power levied against him by the alliance between gods and by being their biggest and most important target.

15-Mar-2018 00:54:56 - Last edited on 15-Mar-2018 00:56:57 by Hguoh

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
You are looking at it a bit oddly. Think of it this way:

If Zamorak and Drakan were still allies, then we'd expect to either have seen Drakan's territory fall prior to Zamorak being forced back to Forinthry (being a target of the joint alliance against Zamorak and actively aiding him), or that when Forinthry had fallen Zamorak would retreat back to his stronghold that had clearly weathered the God Wars to that point.

Given the geography, it wouldn't make sense for Morytania to fall first. Forinthry would need to be conquered in order to reasonably reach Morytania.

And yes, Zamorak would logically retreat to Morytania once Forinthry fell...except by the time Forinthry fell, Guthix came and ended it completely.

Hguoh said :
This would appear to indicate that while Saradomin opposed and fought both Drakan and Zamorak, the two were not aiding each other.

Which makes no sense tactically on Drakan's end. Forinthry guards Morytania's border and Drakan could take advantage of Zamorak's troops guarding his hold.

Hguoh said :
And as Zamorak possessed the Catalyst, more territory, and a larger military, Saradomin clearly focussed more on the fight on that front (particularly when it became clear that assaults on Drakan's territory were failing whilst his attention was divided fighting both fronts).

Unless you're counting the final hours of the war, Zamorak never held the stone. The whole point of the war was to keep it away from him. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Mar-2018 01:25:21

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Given the geography, it wouldn't make sense for Morytania to fall first. Forinthry would need to be conquered in order to reasonably reach Morytania.

And yes, Zamorak would logically retreat to Morytania once Forinthry fell...except by the time Forinthry fell, Guthix came and ended it completely.

The geography has Morytania blocked off primarily by Sentisten and part of southern Forinthry. Both of these areas Saradomin took before pushing into the rest of Forinthry. If Morytania were allied with Zamorak, it would make perfect sense to take it out when it became disconnected from the rest of Zamorakian controlled territory and the reinforcements and supplies that come with that. Yet that opportunity was passed up.

And Forinthry fell when Zamorak was backed into a corner and his armies were destroyed. Yet Morytania clearly still stood. Could he not teleport to safety with the stone? To an area that still had it's own army and was clearly defensible? Yet he made his last stand in Forinthry, and tried to take out all the gods there rather than continue to try to fight the good fight in Morytania.

I just really doesn't appear to be the case that he was on good enough terms with Drakan at the time to justify Drakan involving himself in Zamorak's new war. And keep in mind that Lorwerniel was part of setting up the Zarosian-like vampyre society in Morytania. It is only later that he came to consider it to have been a mistake and sought methods to change it. So I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't too keen on Zamorak's espoused ideology (and he only vowed to aid Zamorak with the coup in exchange for Hallowvale, so he had little reason to remain with Zamorak after obtaining it).

15-Mar-2018 01:56:51 - Last edited on 15-Mar-2018 02:22:34 by Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Which makes no sense tactically on Drakan's end. Forinthry guards Morytania's border and Drakan could take advantage of Zamorak's troops guarding his hold.

Not really. Forinthry gets in the way in the north, sure, but one could just as easily approach Morytania by water (and we know Saradomin had at least one island territory (Entrana). Any other entrance to Morytania inherently involves either crossing the the River Salve, which doesn't need one to go all the way into Forinthry or even up to Senntisten, or flight (which Saradomin had a limited supply of and would otherwise need to convince his ally Armadyl to contribute troops (and Armadyl's concern was Zamorak and not Drakan)).

There was really little to no defensive benefit to allying with Zamorak outside of the limited possibility of Zamorak turning his sights on Drakan's lands eventually.

Hazeel said :
Unless you're counting the final hours of the war, Zamorak never held the stone. The whole point of the war was to keep it away from him.

How's this then? Zamorak wanted the stone, which made him a threat to Saradomin as he held the stone.

Also, we know Zamorak had the stone for at least some time since he first hid it with Drakan in his castle (so while they might not be aiding each other militarily, they weren't on bad terms with each other) and then took it back.

Point is, if Drakan was largely willing to keep his armies in Morytania with only the occasional border scuffle (his significant expansion west of the Salve didn't occur until the gods were expelled), he is much more likely to be overlooked than if he were to actively aid Zamorak's war effort militarily.

Drakan's basically in the position of having just got a good home for himself and his followers, and can't afford to lose that by openly allying himself with Zamorak.

15-Mar-2018 02:21:48 - Last edited on 15-Mar-2018 02:24:12 by Hguoh

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
TIf Morytania were allied with Zamorak, it would make perfect sense to take it out when it became disconnected from the rest of Zamorakian controlled territory and the reinforcements and supplies that come with that. Yet that opportunity was passed up.

What are you talking about? There was a massive effort to take back Morytania.

Hguoh said :
And Forinthry fell when Zamorak was backed into a corner and his armies were destroyed. Yet Morytania clearly still stood. Could he not teleport to safety with the stone? To an area that still had it's own army and was clearly defensible?

Apparently not. I can only assume there was something preventing him from teleporting.

1) Clearly he didn't lose all of his forces because even ignoring GWD (because it was frozen), his followers were nowhere near extinction.

2) But let's ignore that and pretend all of his armies were dead. All of them. No land left at all. It would make more sense for him to just teleport either directly to infernus or some remote location until he could teleport to infernus. Unless we wanna write this off as a lore fail, I'll assume something was preventing him from teleporting at all.

Hguoh said :
And keep in mind that Lorwerniel was part of setting up the Zarosian-like vampyre society in Morytania. It is only later that he came to consider it to have been a mistake and sought methods to change it.

Personally I think that happened when he left Vanescula to run things since she seemed more fanatic about the idea, and Drakan seemed opposed even in the old days. But even if we assume this to be the case...

Giving up a crucial ally when he's being attacked a common enemy just seems asinine. Even if he did want the Zarosian-esque society, it'd be much wiser to wait until after the war before turning on Zamorak. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Mar-2018 02:36:26

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
Not really. Forinthry gets in the way in the north, sure, but one could just as easily approach Morytania by water (and we know Saradomin had at least one island territory (Entrana).

"Easily" implying this is at all ideal. Possible, sure, but it heavily limits Saradomin's access. Going for Forinthry first makes much more sense from a tactical viewpoint.

Hguoh said :
There was really little to no defensive benefit to allying with Zamorak

Protection.

Hguoh said :
Also, we know Zamorak had the stone for at least some time since he first hid it with Drakan in his castle (so while they might not be aiding each other militarily, they weren't on bad terms with each other) and then took it back.

I had always assumed this happened during the Second Age. Is there anything stating it happened in the Third? Because as far as I can tell, this is the only confirmed elements in the timeline.

Saradomin takes the stone from Zamorak.

Saradomin hides the stone from Zamorak in Forinthry, stating that the war is over hiding the stone from him. The stone has been kept a secret from everyone.

The stone is found...in Forinthry, which happens to be where Saradomin hid it in the beginning. And so the war ends.

I doubt that this is coincidence.

Hguoh said :
Point is, if Drakan was largely willing to keep his armies in Morytania with only the occasional border scuffle (his significant expansion west of the Salve didn't occur until the gods were expelled), he is much more likely to be overlooked than if he were to actively aid Zamorak's war effort militarily.

He just commit genocide against Saradomin's most powerful race and took a massive chunk of his land. Good luck ignoring that. If anything, it'd make more sense to pick him off while he's unallied, take back the land, and use it for the war effort. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Mar-2018 02:43:41

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
"Easily" implying this is at all ideal. Possible, sure, but it heavily limits Saradomin's access. Going for Forinthry first makes much more sense from a tactical viewpoint.]

For what purpose would you go through Forinthry? There is but the barest slip of land that joins Forinthry to Morytania, and it's blocked by Mountains. You'd need flying troops (which Saradomin personally lacked and his allies were more concerned with Zamorak rather than Drakan) or would have a very difficult time progressing by land.

An attack by sea or over river is far more feasible and doesn't require Saradomin to go through Forinthry first by any means.

Hazeel said :
Protection.

From what? The best attack Saradomin mustered up against Drakan during the 3rd age was undone not by Zamorak's aid, but by Sliske's. And it was a campaign entirely made up of humans, not exactly a sign that Saradomin was putting in his best effort. All we know of the God Wars points to Drakan being largely ignored outside of token efforts against him.

15-Mar-2018 03:03:28

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
I had always assumed this happened during the Second Age. Is there anything stating it happened in the Third? Because as far as I can tell, this is the only confirmed elements in the timeline.]

Movario followed the stone's trail to Morytania, indicating that had spent time there (given that Saradomin kept the stone so secret, I really doubt he'd have taken it to his biggest city).

Then there's also this bit from Lord of Vampyrium:

Vanescula Drakan: Vampyrium? So that is where you have been gone all these years? We thought you secluded in your quarters, obsessing over that 'rock'.

Lowerniel Drakan: Do I seem a moody vyreling to you, sulking in my room? No, that 'rock' showed me the way - its loss merely delayed my plans.

Which seems to indicate that Vanescula wasn't aware that Lorwerniel no longer had the stone and believed he was sequestered in his chambers with it (which could only happen after they took Hallowvale).

Hazeel said :
Saradomin hides the stone from Zamorak in Forinthry, stating that the war is over hiding the stone from him. The stone has been kept a secret from everyone.

It would be very odd for Saradomin to hide and leave the stone in an area that (given the battle over Senntisten's control and Battle at Uzer shifted into Zamorakian hands over the course of the war. I feel like we are missing a few points at which the stone traded hands between Zamorak and Saradomin at various points in the War.

Or heck, maybe Saradomin did hide the stone in Hallowvale, Drakan found it, and traded it to Saradomin after the Barrows Brothers' crusade in exchange for no further attacks. Or maybe it's what he traded to Sliske to end the Brother's crusade and Sliske used it to rile up tensions in the war. Or maybe we are just missing key events that happened in the God Wars.

15-Mar-2018 03:23:34

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
He just commit genocide against Saradomin's most powerful race and took a massive chunk of his land. Good luck ignoring that. If anything, it'd make more sense to pick him off while he's unallied, take back the land, and use it for the war effort.

Yes, yes. He dealt a massive blow against Saradomin, but then what? He just kinda sat back and worked on holding his new land.

Meanwhile Saradomin is preoccupied trying to claim as much Zarosian territory and technology as he can. And by the time Saradomin finishes with that, he's no in open war against his once ally, Zamorak.

All the while, Drakan's just kinda fortifying Morytania.

It was a big war, and Saradomin had to pick his battles to fight. And for as devastating a loss Drakan initially dealt him, there was never any follow up. It probably didn't help that any attempts Saradomin made at reclaiming the area were rebuffed, while he was gaining and losing ground on other fronts.

And keep in mind that Hallowvale was a young settlement. For as important as it was to the Icyene, I'd be dumbfounded if Saradomin had invested that much of his military and economic might into it (or even had the time to). And we know that Icyene fought throughout the God Wars. So I'd guess the abbsence of Icyene on modern Gielinor owes more to Zamorak hunting them down and the Forinthry blast, than anything on Drakan's part.

15-Mar-2018 03:37:54

Hazeel

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Looking back, another thing I find weird is that the vampire's absence caused a problem when it came to dealing with Saradomin's aerial soldiers. Saradomin himself had lost the Icyene at this point due to the genocide of Hallowvale and even if he didn't, the Avernic have wings too. If anything, I would think Zamorak would be having more problems with Armadyl, assuming the Aviansie hadn't died yet.

@Hguoh It's late, so I'm going to have to check later but doesn't Forinthry expand past the current Wilderness and comprise of Varrock area, Senntisten and such? Pretty much the border above the desert? With the assumption in mind, it would be vital to hold unless they could access the desert and cross the salve from there.

Largely ignored? Didn't that war effort last at least hundreds of years? Also of course it was mostly humans...Saradomin's army was mostly human, the Icyene were bordering extinction, and the Centuars might have been bordering extinction depending on the timeline. What other race is there?

I'm aware the stone was in Morytania at one point. But where was it indicated that it was in the third age? As far as I could tell, Drakan held on to it between the time Zamorak found it and the time of the actual rebellion.

Regardless of how odd you find it, we know he put it there for a fact. There's no disputing it, we saw it there. We know it's been kept a secret. Even Zilyana didn't find out about it until the end of the war when Saradomin had no choice. The idea that it somehow managed to trade hands without anyone finding out is....well far fetched to say the least. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Mar-2018 08:21:42

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