RuneScape Forum Archive | 3rd Age War Makeup @ Mod Jack

Jan

2021

AesirWarrior

Posts: 1,060 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

^ If Saradomin's words are to be believed, and I doubt he'd lie to someone just after ressurecting them and showing them his greatest secret, then he had the stone since the war began up until at least year 3100. -

I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?

- We call it being a hero.

15-Mar-2018 12:43:02

Jan

2021

AesirWarrior

Posts: 1,060 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Double post. You don't see those a lot anymore, huh? -

I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?

- We call it being a hero.

15-Mar-2018 12:43:06 - Last edited on 15-Mar-2018 12:43:56 by AesirWarrior

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Kudos for this excellent in-depth resume on the useful data on important distinctions between Saradominist and Zamorakian forces. The staggering differences between the two factions in their respective war aims throughout the Third Age were huge.

The process of managing all seized territories as rapidly as possible by methods of unrestrained coercion and terror, together with the barbaric exploitation of vast resources needed to continue aggression, shows us the complexity and extent of the past wars.

It is safe to assume that if one has not read this work (or, at least, is not familiar with its ideas), they don’t understand the full meaning of Gielinor’s history. It is greatly appreciated by everyone here, for you to provide this encyclopedic knowledge of military theory and history of the God Wars from the Third Age.

It speaks volumes about Saradomin’s and Zamorak’s preparation and execution, and their influence on mankind leading up to the present, with the participation of our race in the God Wars in collaboration with or against many gods’ armies. One only needs to analyze some well-known facts and read between the lines to show the Third Age as the darkest episode in Gielinor's history.

As you put in the time to study these details, keep in mind several important things:

- Firstly, this relatively small text is an overview of the many very complex political, historical and military events, allowing us to elaborate on the art of war in specific terms. The number of dogmas and controversies the author takes on is mind-boggling, and this is why they must occasionally abbreviate their arguments.

- Secondly, as this information has recently become available, it serves as the basis of a common understanding of the events known as God Wars and its aftermath, leading to the world we know as Gielinor today, and is a must-read for any lorehound to greatly boost their knowledge, considering the lives of those who actually lived and fought through the events. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

15-Mar-2018 21:05:19

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Looking back, another thing I find weird is that the vampire's absence caused a problem when it came to dealing with Saradomin's aerial soldiers. Saradomin himself had lost the Icyene at this point due to the genocide of Hallowvale and even if he didn't, the Avernic have wings too. If anything, I would think Zamorak would be having more problems with Armadyl, assuming the Aviansie hadn't died yet.

It would be a mistake to underestimate the enormous strength and resources of Saradomin's war machine. Despite its grievous losses, it had enough strength to withdraw and gather new strength to reach Senntisten and half of Forinthry. How far would it have gone had it not sustained that fatal blow on Hallowvale, if that many bombardiers and infantry had not been lost, had it been Ascertes' Icyene, and not the vampire which struck the first blow?

Although the Icyene noted that an invasion of Hallowvale was very much possible after the betrayal of Zaros, they surely did not expect it to happen before any major defeat. Thus, they were mainly diverted to activities of primary importance, as the Zamorakians and Zarosians were battling Saradomin on other fronts, likely believing an eastern agression postponed.

As Hallowvale and its local civilian infrastructure surrendered, did the remaining troops not retreat to other Saradominist territories? As I see it, Hallowvale's ruler and Saradomin's military command had conflicting interests (abroad) to say the least. It is known that Saradomin's military was reorganized at some point, that one being the most logical opportunity for the surviving Icyene to blend into new tagmata units, for strategic purposes.

Demographically speaking, and in contrast to ground troops, for Icyene it was simple to retreat from one battlefield to the other. Lastly, should the head of state fall, remote survivors could report to a lower hierarchy, like some strategos, to establish a new front line. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

17-Mar-2018 19:51:23 - Last edited on 17-Mar-2018 20:01:15 by Byzantinist

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
@Hguoh It's late, so I'm going to have to check later but doesn't Forinthry expand past the current Wilderness and comprise of Varrock area, Senntisten and such? Pretty much the border above the desert? With the assumption in mind, it would be vital to hold unless they could access the desert and cross the salve from there.

It's odd to describe the borders of what would be considered Forinthry the continent since we mostly do so by the limits of modern domains. That being said, the Zarosian Empire at the height of its power stretched from Northernmost Forinthry to just above the desert, and from Edgeville (at the very least) to parts of Northern Morytania.

That being said, we know Saradomin was able to settle the Hallowvale area prior to Zamorak's coup, so he's been able to get to that area without going through Empire territory before (With both flying Icyene and land-bound humans). And even if operate on the idea that it would be better to launch a strike on Hallowvale from ex-Zarosian territory, we know (as did Saradomin) such an attack can be done from the Senntisten area, which Saradomin controlled by yr3804 of the 3rd age. Yet Saradomin pursued Zamorak's forces for ~200yrs until the end of the God Wars rather than launching a concerted effort against the now isolated and very accessible Drakan.

Hazeel said :
Largely ignored? Didn't that war effort last at least hundreds of years? Also of course it was mostly humans...Saradomin's army was mostly human, the Icyene were bordering extinction, and the Centuars might have been bordering extinction depending on the timeline. What other race is there?

The war effort against Drakan during the God Wars consisted of:

The Barrows Brothers attempt (inherently less than a human lifetime in length in comparison to the multi-millenia war).

That's it.

17-Mar-2018 19:52:41

Hguoh

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The only other Saradominist push against Drakan occurs during the 4th age by the 7 Priestly Warriors. So yeah, I'd say Sradomin largely ignored Drakan, having given it one brief attempt and then relegating Drakan to low priority.

Hazeel said :
I'm aware the stone was in Morytania at one point. But where was it indicated that it was in the third age? As far as I could tell, Drakan held on to it between the time Zamorak found it and the time of the actual rebellion.

We know that Guthix had the stone in the first age. We know that it was hidden in a/the rune essence mine by the 2nd age, where V found it. From there, the Kethsians took it to their plane. The Dragonkin wiped out the Kethsians, and somehow Zamorak Ended up with the stone.

It remained with him, until the end of the 2nd age, when Saradomin took it after Zamorak was taken, unconscious, to Infernus. Then the God Wars happened, culminating in Zamorak getting the stone and blowing up Forinthry. This woke up Guthix, who banished the gods, and hid the stone far below what would become Lumbridge, where it remained until we found it in the 5th age.

This timeline leaves little room for the stone to have been in Hallowvale. Outside of Guthix originally finding the stone in the area that would become Hallowvale or it being in Hallowvale in the period between the Kethsians having it and Zamorak acquiring it (in which case, I question how Zamorak got it out from Saradomin's nose), the stone could have only been in Hallowvale during the 3rd age. And given that Saradomin wanted it secret, I doubt he took it to Hallowvale himself.

And again, Vanescula seems to believe that Lorwerniel had been holed up studying the stone since he disappeared from the public eye, needing Lorwerniel to correct her that the stone had been lost (which only makes sense if he had the stone after taking Hallowvale).

17-Mar-2018 20:05:42 - Last edited on 17-Mar-2018 20:07:37 by Hguoh

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Regardless of how odd you find it, we know he put it there for a fact. There's no disputing it, we saw it there. We know it's been kept a secret. Even Zilyana didn't find out about it until the end of the war when Saradomin had no choice. The idea that it somehow managed to trade hands without anyone finding out is....well far fetched to say the least.

But when did he put it there? He claims to have hidden it there after Zamorak was banished. Thing is, that would mean leaving the stone in territory then still under Zarosian (and eventually Zamorakian) control for most of the 3rd age. In addition, we know that Zamorak was never banished by anyone (he was taken to Infernus by the Avernic).

For all appearances, Saradomin wasn't telling the whole truth about where the stone had been during the whole God Wars (though we know it spent a lot of time where Saradomin hid it, as is evident by the residual energy in the Fist of Guthix).

Besides, we know that the Stone didn't remain as secret as Saradomin intended given it was attributed to him as his eye. People knew Saradomin had the stone (and we know certain Zamorakians knew about the stone), though they were few, and this easily leaves room for people to have witnessed one side take the stone from the other while still having it remain a secret to most on Gielinor.

17-Mar-2018 20:28:04

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hazeel said :
Largely ignored? Didn't that war effort last at least hundreds of years? Also of course it was mostly humans...Saradomin's army was mostly human, the Icyene were bordering extinction, and the Centuars might have been bordering extinction depending on the timeline. What other race is there?

Hguoh said :
Yet Saradomin pursued Zamorak's forces for ~200yrs until the end of the God Wars rather than launching a concerted effort against the now isolated and very accessible Drakan.
Indeed, the Barrows Brothers were the first ones to cross Morytania's borders. Operating in small group, they seized and held swamp crossings and road junctions. Suddenly, a fresh Saradominist detachment infiltrated into Drakan's territory to join them in battle, covering huge amounts of marshy land and, in a complementary attack, then cleared and held the area spanning from the River Salve up until the walls of Sanguinesti. Quite the effort, considering their Third Age priorities.

Thus, the entire war in the east may be termed a preventive war to destroy Drakan's forces with a surprise attack. The latter, without Sliske's aid to the Barrows later on, could like place Saradominist borders in an exceptionally critical situation as a consequence.

Hguoh said :
The war effort against Drakan during the God Wars consisted of:

The Barrows Brothers attempt (inherently less than a human lifetime in length in comparison to the multi-millenia war).

That's it. It is unwise to play down the massive efforts at the outset of Saradomin's Morytania invasion. While one takes into account all of Drakan's troops, on Saradomin's side only the elite, highly trained and fully armed Barrows brothers are counted. The rear-line troops, however, are usually and conveniently left out of the calculation. More Saradominist soldiers joined them in their fight. This is the truth, though not all. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

17-Mar-2018 21:13:33 - Last edited on 17-Mar-2018 21:24:39 by Byzantinist

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Byzantinist said :
It is unwise to play down the massive efforts at the outset of Saradomin's Morytania invasion. While one takes into account all of Drakan's troops, on Saradomin's side only the elite, highly trained and fully armed Barrows brothers are counted. The rear-line troops, however, are usually and conveniently left out of the calculation. More Saradominist soldiers joined them in their fight. This is the truth, though not all.

The reason they are left out is because none of them bloody mattered. The Brothers and the gear they got from Sliske drove the campaign as far as it managed. And the moment they were removed from play, the campaign was driven back and all it's work undone. As much as Drakan would have been in trouble if Sliske didn't stop the Brothers, the campaign would have done nothing had Sliske not supplied them in the first place.

The fact that the campaign owed it's successes and failures to the whims of a singular third party shows just how little concern Saradomin had for it and how vulnerable Drakan's forces were.

17-Mar-2018 21:35:32

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
The reason they are left out is because none of them bloody mattered. The Brothers and the gear they got from Sliske drove the campaign as far as it managed. And the moment they were removed from play, the campaign was driven back and all it's work undone. As much as Drakan would have been in trouble if Sliske didn't stop the Brothers, the campaign would have done nothing had Sliske not supplied them in the first place. Rest assured, it had nothing to do with respect to the strength of the armies following the brothers, considering they did not use blisterwood, or magically enchanted weapons unlike the Brothers. I merely pointed out their valuable presence, which was described multiple in “Crumbling Tome” and “The Fall of Six”.

“The phalanxes engaged the rank and file, spurred on by the brothers’ fearlessness and courage, while the brothers themselves squared up to the enemy champions.” The Fall of Six, Lores and Histories, Barrows, Mahjarrat quest series.

There, it is clearly mentioned on several occasions that a considerable amount of battle-hardened warriors and even medics were used to secure Morytanian territory, along with the Barrows Brothers : they were very experienced soldiers from southern Forinthry’s front.

The Phalanx were incredibly close to the brothers, fighting alongside them, literally only a few meters away from the front itself. They had not been there for defensive purposes.

In other words, Saradomin put in his most valuable commanders, the Barrows brothers and phalanx (soldiers being led by them), on a deep venture into Morytania. If necessary, he would have diverted those forces abroad to expand or secure fresh territory with Zarosian goodies, as he had used them for that before. This was the power of the logistics of Saradomin’s war machine, and showed how much he was concerned by Drakan, when Forinthry got swallowed by the same troops n Senntisten was about to be surrounded. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

18-Mar-2018 08:51:27

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