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Hguoh

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Byzantinist said :
How could it have happened that Lord Drakan’s siblings sat back, without any plans, while the enemy waged war in their front yard? They proved to be quite effective air support troops in Zamorak’s war machine, and were vital in his battles.

Never said they sat back and did nothing, just that most would be more on the planning side of things rather than out on the battlefield.

I also wouldn't say that they were vital to his war machine considering most of them left with the taking of Hallowvale very early on in the God Wars, and Zamorak still proceeded to conquer most of Forinthry as his own (losing it only much later in the Wars when Saradomin turned against him and allied with Armadyl and Bandos).

Byzantinist said :
Without the original vampyre's participation after Hallowvale’s fall, it wouldn’t make sense that they would make a big difference for Zamorak’s legions, to have been able to win against his enemies. What caused their loss? How did Drakan use up their potential?

Losses in battle, seeking to allow continuation of family lines, indulgence in excess resources leading to a substantial shift to aristocracy over fighting. Again, outside of Lorwerniel, most of the pure-born vamps don't seem keen on getting their hands dirty. They seem deem that a task fit for converted humans, werewolves, or others beneath them.

Byzantinist said :
Even the few humans converted to Vyrewatch had long range aviation capabilities, though Saradomin did not have any airborne troops. The former could easily cross obstacles, while the latter had to apply a slow, static “battering-ram” strategy, failing without the Bros' help.

And yet, we don't see them on the battlefield when it came to the brothers' fall:

and watched as the marshalled forces of their enemy crashed upon the camp – demons, wolves and hounds, undead creatures and other such horrors.

19-Mar-2018 23:02:50

Hguoh

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Signs seem to point to most vampyres not being very keen on directly fighting their enemies (possibly why they left Zamorak in the first place), and the conversion process still not being refined enough to produce notable amounts of vyres (also keep in mind that conversion doesn't automatically lead to flight since vampyre juvinates are a thing).

Byzantinist said :
Lastly, there were reports of “great monstrosities” and “great beasts” against whom the Saradominists fought in the crumbling tome, thus the phalanx could less easily penetrate Morytania. Yet another piece of Saradominist propaganda?

See my quote in the previous post. It's from the Fall of the Six and is discussing the same battle as the battle in the Crumbling Tome when the monstrosities and beasts showed up. So we have demons, hounds, wolves, undead, and other 'horrors.'

Couldn't have been many demons since most of them were bound to serve Zamorak (by contract or gratitude for him defeating the Chthonians). Hounds and wolves can be fearsome, but they aren't exactly a huge challenge. Undead in the area consists of ghasts, crawling hands, shades, aberrant spectres, and banshees. That leaves 'horrors.'

That can't be bloodvelds since they arose later as the expanding vampyre population sought to improve their supply of blood. It can't be the chthonian demons of the Slayer Tower, since those are feral and stick around their entry portal. At best, you might have some small number of wyrds used against Saradominist forces like mad attack dogs (remember, Drakan regretted the creation of wyrds, so there wouldn't be many).

19-Mar-2018 23:07:32 - Last edited on 19-Mar-2018 23:39:03 by Hguoh

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
Now follow that through. If Sliske hadn't armed the brothers, the campaign would have failed from the get go. Those six phalanx granted were clearly not up to the task they were given.

Though Saradomin may have possessed the power, he had limited experience and knowledge compared to Sliske to magically boon humans with armor and weapons. All he thought possible in the God Wars was to revive centaur followers with a wand, and an Icyene commander with the Catalyst.

Both of those races were scarce and exhausted after thousands of years, and could only be used in a dispersed fashion, blending in with other vital armies. We did not see this in the Morytania campaign, thus the Barrows brothers and the remaining phalangites were the only hope in order to push the enemy away.

So yeah, without Sliske, the chance for Saradomin’s offensive in Morytania and even Forinthry, would have been very slim to result in a decisive victory. Drakan would also be able to preserve his siblings for him there and then, not sustaining any grave losses, not having to be sacrificed throughout the war.

Before attacking Drakan’s forces, Saradomin’s strageoi would have to send in one super spy, to return with top secret information to say Morytania is a huge and rough territory, with countless monsters that could destroy the flanks. If an army must cross a big territory, one should think it over, try get good weapons not for six persons with them, but for everyone. Even without adequate reserves nor any boon, Saradomin was like “sure, we can do it”.

All this gives reason to suspect the Morytania invasion attempt with exhausted forces as a preemptive strike, without using airborne Icyene to make the huge crucial difference. With slow and immobile humans and six Barrows brothers, Saradomin saw this as a final opportunity, to smash at those monstrosities, without first exposing his busy armies dealing with the other factions in his rear. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

19-Mar-2018 23:28:17 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2018 12:56:23 by Byzantinist

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
And if Saradomin had actually bothered to grant any sort of boon to literally anybody else in the force or grant such a boon to others after the brothers failed to try again, he could have easily taken Morytania as is evident by how far the brothers managed to get...

The brothers were the only resources available to improvise in this last-minute strike.

The main principle of any strategy is to concentrate your power against a weak point to attain victory. Saradomin’s perspective was that his reserve armies were reduced and tied up for the rest of the continent to be cleared.

Thus, he had insufficient shock troops to fight against Drakan's hordes and protect his rear, being busy concentrating his power on Zamorak for the Catalyst, while the reduced Icyene and centaur served as his main front's boons.

“Even the largest monsters find the bristling wall of pike points to be a serious threat, and the phalanx is only really vulnerable from the flanks and from above.”

As his phalanx were battle-hardened and organized, the enemy could only lure them out by flanking them. With a solid defence, they held the Barrows camp, alone, for days on end.

Eventually, they realized they could not advance with their flanks exposed- that's my point- to continue they required fast and maneuverable shock troops like the Barrows, who'd continue to protect their flanks, to slowly advance until reaching the enemy's heart and routing its vast number of forces. As they did not succeed, they had to pull back to their initial borders to fortify their territory.

“ The phalanx, though extremely effective, cannot be effectively deployed on rough terrain like hills, woods or settlements which break up the formation. ”

Strange, Morytania harbors a lot of woods, swamps, hills, and other natural barriers blocking smooth access, unless relying on roadways. This poor preparation points to a preemptive attack on Morytania's hordes. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

20-Mar-2018 16:50:39

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
Considering the Seven Priestly Warriors managed to push back Morytania's invasion of Misthalin all the way to the Salve without any indication of an army aiding them (and in the absence of any godly or Mahjarrat support)...

As you may know, there was an army of Misthalanian knights slowing the massive push of vyres down, but the former were eventually overrun. As you know, vyres are much more powerful than unprepared human soldiers lacking sufficient training and weaponry.

You could miniaturize the Saradominist side’s numbers all you want, though let’s consider that the priests did not single-handedly push the vyres back, as in that case they would be far outnumbered.

It was rather due to their heroic resistance, after Varrock's guards and knights fled and succumbed at first, that, eventually, the Seven would inspire the " village fighters " and " town militias ", boosting their morale to succesfully and entirely push the vyres back.

Simply put, they had taken on the role of managers, blessing the other soldiers, forcing them to take up arms. Misthalin's armies wouldn't move on without those leaders, and vice versa.

It was due to the combined efforts of the military garrissons aiding the Seven priests in battle, that the latter finally received the opportunity to secure the Salve and bless it with blood magic, keeping the enemy from coming back and massing beyond the borders.

It all the more explains how Saradominist forces were always extremely dependent on hierarchy, some higher rank or form of leadership to show them the way, instilling discipline and courage in their battle formations against an enormous threat.

So yeah, the use of blood spell played a huge role in keeping the enemy away, though the vyres retreated far back only with the combined effort of the Seven Priests barking orderts at their brothers in arms- the populace of Misthalin- gradually reducing Drakan's great army. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

20-Mar-2018 19:04:39

Hguoh

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Byzantinist said :
You could miniaturize the Saradominist side’s numbers all you want, though let’s consider that the priests did not single-handedly push the vyres back, as in that case they would be far outnumbered.

But they did. Blood of the Covenant:

To reach this place has taken a toll on my brothers and sisters, but now we stand before the Salve, we find ourselves invigorated. The purity of its water shall wash away all sin, and separate us from all the beasts beyond for all time.

Brother Twiblick has begun preparations for the blood ritual, entrusted to the Temple Knights by Saradomin himself, even in spite of his unjust eviction from our midst.

...

The ritual we prepare is a strange one for the pious followers for our lord, hence why the task was handed to the Temple Knights.

We know all too well that to hold back the darkness can often require a darkness of its own, but tempered by the holy light of our lord, we know that it is just.

If sacrificial blood magic is required in order to protect the citizens of Misthalin, then the Temple Knights shall bear that burden.

There is also no indication of an army aiding them in their efforts, and they explicitly exclude there being others in this push to the Salve. Furthermore, let's consider the idea that these seven were able to turn disparate town militias and village fighters into a force capable of pushing the vyres back when Saradomin had a well organized army that failed to do the same in the absence of the brothers and that those same forces already had been failing against the vyres before the priestly warriors aid.

If 6-7 tough people is all it takes to turn a landslide victory into a crushing defeat for Drakan's forces, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were all that powerful in the first place (just that the people he was fighting against were embarrassingly incompetent at defending themselves (or just gave up once the tough people fell).

20-Mar-2018 20:11:39 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2018 20:13:30 by Hguoh

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
But they did. Blood of the Covenant...

If 6-7 tough people is all it takes to turn a landslide victory into a crushing defeat for Drakan's forces, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were all that powerful in the first place (just that the people he was fighting against were embarrassingly incompetent at at defending themselves (or just gave up once the to

Thanks for the enlightening information from the Blood of the Covenant. It is obviously the most recent piece of lore on the subject, though I could not find any anecdote describing the battles before reaching the Salve River. I shall now also be referring you to the Sleeping Seven tome to confront the 'seven priests only' thesis with some contradictory evidence:

'Fearing the darkness would sweep Saradomin's glory from the land, some odd collection of priestly advocates and pious followers of brave virtue stood forth to steel the hearts of the village fighters and town militias, the last defence against the evil now fresh from Hallowvale, and from that time till now called Morytania.'

' They commanded the will of Misthalanian fighters high and right ,... commanded people's respect and admiration and they eagerly followed him into battle... His booming voice rallied man in times of fierce fighting, this allowing them to regroup and focus their brutal, savage violence and force capitulation from writhing, evil hordes. indignation made the most cowardly of men in her ranks act like lions in the fiercest fighting.'

(continued) Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

20-Mar-2018 21:00:02 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2018 21:19:03 by Byzantinist

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Again:

Hguoh said :
Furthermore, let's consider the idea that these seven were able to turn disparate town militias and village fighters into a force capable of pushing the vyres back when Saradomin had a well organized army that failed to do the same in the absence of the brothers and that those same forces

the ones led by the priestly warriors

already had been failing against the vyres before the priestly warriors aid.

If 6-7 tough people is all it takes to turn a landslide victory into a crushing defeat for Drakan's forces, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were all that powerful in the first place (just that the people he was fighting against were embarrassingly incompetent at defending themselves (or just gave up once the tough people fell).

Firebrick

for clarification of the original post.

20-Mar-2018 21:08:36

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

(continued) Something has been messing with my posts so I'll leave it like this. Thanks for your time. 'They cast Saradomin's blessings upon the untrained and fearful fighters of Varrock and those of her outside villagers. [b]This did raise bravery, courage and righteousness in the hearts of those brave young Misthalanian knights.[/b]' 'The rabble of the Misthalin defence started to bite and the tide of evil from Morytania became [b]smashed and torn on their pikes and staves. All caught courage from the seven.' Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

20-Mar-2018 21:09:43 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2018 21:22:07 by Byzantinist

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Again if 6-7 people can turn Drakan's easy victory into a crushing defeat or their removal do the opposite and this happens repeatedly, I'm not inclined to believe that Drakan's forces were very threatening.

They won Hallowvale by kidnapping King Ascertes, they beat the brothers by making a deal with Sliske, they keep the humans under control with a glimmer of hope. Subtlety and subterfuge has always been the Drakan's strength (from their ascension to power on Vampyrium to Vanescula scheming to assassinate her siblings), not military might or combat prowess.

20-Mar-2018 23:43:12

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