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Fate of the Gods 2

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Velia
Jan Member 2020

Velia

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Hazeel said :
One thing that I want to point out is that "thousands of years" to a Mahjarrat isn't the same as "thousands of years" to us. To a Mahjarrat, that's more like decades. [cut 4 space] I'd be surprised if no living Mahjarrat had seen one at the time...in fact, going from Bilrach's memory, it sounds like he has personally seen them before.
So millennia on Freneskae... Could a Mahjarrat expect to live for millennia on Freneskae in active warfare against other tribes of similar (or greater) strength? We don't know much of their life(span) at the time, so 'thousands of years' could mean anything from "it's been 50 generations..." to "I think uncle saw one before". Personally, I think the former is closer to it's intended interpretation.

If you're going to yell "Chelon-Mah!", consider the circumstances; this one dude has some insane amount of power, and one of the larger enemy tribes has simply up and left the planet. Dude's chances of survival now mostly depend on how much hardcore parkour he can handle.

Bilrach's Memory: No-where does it imply that he's seen a Muspah, but it suggests Mahjarrat didn't live very long:
Original message details are unavailable.
On Freneskae [-] The magicks that serve us so well now on Gielinor were taxed to their limit simply for survival against the environment and the other tribes. Thanks to the constant conflict with the neighbouring Mahserrat and Chelon-Mah, and the need for sacrifices for the Ritual of Rejuvenation, we never numbered more than a few hundred, and came perilously close to extinction many times.

Then, the strangers Icthlarin and Amascut appeared and told us of a world with weaklings, assaulted by an implacable foe. [-] This prompted a debate - the greatest I had seen in my short life - about whether to stay or to go.

I doubt any living Mahjarrat have seen a Muspah, and a millennium is still a long time... unless Freneskae's year's are different.

14-Aug-2016 19:39:49

Hazeel

Hazeel

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I'm sure most Mahjarrat didn't live long, but who is the most likely to survive a ritual? The oldest, most experienced Mahjarrat who has had the time to hone their power, learn about their bretheren, make alliances, etc. I imagine that there would be somewhere between 10-20 "veterans" who dominated the rituals and the younger Mahjarrat would come and go.

I'm sure occassionally there was a cunning young Mahjarrat who managed to survive enoug rituals to hone their own power and join the veterans, and occassionally a veteran would screw up and either pick a fight with the wrong person or otherwise get killed, but for the most part, I think it's logical that their rituals would be dominated by a small group of the eldest Mahjarrat.

With that said, I would be shocked if there were no Mahjarrat millenia older than Wahisietel when they were in Freneskae. Also, Jhallan knows what a Muspah looks like, which brings up the question of where he saw one. Through old ancient Mahjarrat art depictions? Somehow I doubt the Mahjarrat were deep into art, especially on Freneskae.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Aug-2016 00:05:40 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 00:07:28 by Hazeel

Velia
Jan Member 2020

Velia

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Hazeel said :
I'm sure most Mahjarrat didn't live long, but who is the most likely to survive a ritual? The oldest, most experienced Mahjarrat who has had the time to hone their power, learn about their bretheren, make alliances, etc. I imagine that there would be somewhere between 10-20 "veterans" who dominated the rituals and the younger Mahjarrat would come and go.
Probably. Wahi's memory implies this was the case on Freneskae, and it's all but confirmed that they run rituals like this on Gielinor (from Lamistard's carvings).

Still though, while some of them may have lived for a long time on Freneskae, could they really push for a thousand years given their living conditions? It seems like a massive stretch to me; if a powerful Mahjarrat wasn't eventually overtaken by one of their own kind, would the warring tribes -ones who have likely fought against this Mahjarrat time after time, learning their skills- not deem them too much of a threat and make a calculated strike against them?
Hazeel said :
Also, Jhallan knows what a Muspah looks like, which brings up the question of where he saw one. Through old ancient Mahjarrat art depictions? Somehow I doubt the Mahjarrat were deep into art, especially on Freneskae.
I don't think they were completely art-less. Various Mahjarrat memories mention '(our) culture' or 'meager possessions', plus they had folktales.

I dug up this quote from Fate of the Gods: Original message details are unavailable.
Azzanadra:
You are really facing muspah? Our legends are true? In our folk tales, they were most affected by the ancient elements - blood, smoke, shadow or ice spells should prove most effective.
Isn't Azzy supposedly one of the strongest, oldest Mahjarrat? If his position on the 'leave Freneskae' debate was notable, he may have been one of those veterans who hasn't seen a Muspah.

[cont...]

15-Aug-2016 01:59:10 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 02:12:47 by Velia

Velia
Jan Member 2020

Velia

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[...cont]

I suppose Jhallan could've been older than Azzy, given how weary and tired of conflict he was. Although even that doesn't mean that he's a first-hand witness of a Muspah sighting, nor that he had lived millennia on Freneskae. The near-constant conflict probably makes the years seem longer.

It seems weird to me as well; no Mahjarrat had ever thought to scratch/carve some figure of what they interpret a Muspah to look like? I doubt that.

15-Aug-2016 02:11:24 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 02:12:28 by Velia

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Velia said :
Still though, while some of them may have lived for a long time on Freneskae, could they really push for a thousand years given their living conditions?


It's not like they age as humans do. Older Mahjarrat, those that are more experienced with the landscape, combat, etc. are more likely to continue surviving. They have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks when it comes to age.

Velia said :
If a powerful Mahjarrat wasn't eventually overtaken by one of their own kind, would the warring tribes -ones who have likely fought against this Mahjarrat time after time, learning their skills- not deem them too much of a threat and make a calculated strike against them?


The stronger Mahjarrat are less likely to be targetted by their own kind due to fear and culture. And I doubt the other tribes would target them either for a couple of reasons.

1) These types of attacks are generally done to leader figures who are physically weak. Trying this against the stronger Mahjarrat would either waste the lives of the weaker Dreams of Mah or make the strongest members of the other tribes put their own lives at risk in enemy territory.

2) The Mahserrat had no sacrifices, so none of them lived prolonged lives. I doubt they would live long enough to recognize the strongest members of the other tribes. As for the Chelon-Mah...I have no idea what their condition was before they were all sacrificed.

Velia said :
Isn't Azzy supposedly one of the strongest, oldest Mahjarrat? If his position on the 'leave Freneskae' debate was notable, he may have been one of those veterans who hasn't seen a Muspah.


Strongest? Maybe. Oldest? I'd be shocked. I think he'd be one of the younger upstarts since he seems to have no connection to their culture whatsoever and is quite content with throwing it away.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Aug-2016 03:04:45

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Velia said :
I suppose Jhallan could've been older than Azzy, given how weary and tired of conflict he was. Although even that doesn't mean that he's a first-hand witness of a Muspah sighting, nor that he had lived millennia on Freneskae. The near-constant conflict probably makes the years seem longer.


He did act like a cranky old man most of the time. XD But it seems weird to me that he managed to capture a Muspah's appearance perfectly if he hadn't ever seen one.

Not to mention how odd it would be for him to have a phobia of something he's never seen. I mean a T Rex would be pretty scary, but I don't have nightmares about them.

Velia said :
It seems weird to me as well; no Mahjarrat had ever thought to scratch/carve some figure of what they interpret a Muspah to look like? I doubt that.


Why would they?

1) The Mahjarrat aren't that interested in art.

2) I imagine showing such an interest would be a sign of weakness.

3) They needed their magic to survive. Wasting it on a statue is asinine...

4) ^...Especially since it probably wouldn't survive the night, given Freneskae's atmosphere.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Aug-2016 03:07:48 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 03:12:19 by Hazeel

Maiden China

Maiden China

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Velia said :
[...cont]I suppose Jhallan could've been older than Azzy, given how weary and tired of conflict he was. Although even that doesn't mean that he's a first-hand witness of a Muspah sighting, nor that he had lived millennia on Freneskae. The near-constant conflict probably makes the years seem longer.
I'm surprised azzy hasnt seen one. I actually think it's more likely that he's lying for whatever reason
for jhallan the 'near-constant conflict' would be pretty hard on him, whereas azzanadra pretty much has a spot reserved at every ritual, seeing how old and powerful he is... so jhallan would get 'weary' long before azzy does
also jhallan doesnt get much respect from people and with mahjarrat age means power means respect... so he's unlikely to be overly old


chaos dwarves are laughably weak (although admittedly physically stronger than humans and a tad insane)
i mean, yes, compare the average chaos dwarf to the average human and the humans will look pretty weak, but chaos dwarves arent overly interested in living peaceful civilian lives... so it's better to compare them to human warriors than to farmer joe Hazeel said :

Velia said :
Isn't Azzy supposedly one of the strongest, oldest Mahjarrat? If his position on the 'leave Freneskae' debate was notable, he may have been one of those veterans who hasn't seen a Muspah.


Strongest? Maybe. Oldest? I'd be shocked. I think he'd be one of the younger upstarts since he seems to have no connection to their culture whatsoever and is quite content with throwing it away.
random jmod said he imagined azzy as being one of the first mahjarrat...
I really need to start writing this stuff down so people dont think I made it up :P
Carn

15-Aug-2016 16:44:28

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Maiden China said :
but chaos dwarves arent overly interested in living peaceful civilian lives... so it's better to compare them to human warriors than to farmer joe


Even if I compare them to guards, I'm still putting my money on the Chaos Dwarf. XD

Maiden China said :
random jmod said he imagined azzy as being one of the first mahjarrat...


I suppose anything's possible, but that would be really jarring. He acts like he's so young compared to the others. Many others seem to have a strong connection to their culture and history while Azzanandra seems uninterested, like Wahisietel, and very willing to throw it away. Jhallan isn't too fond of it either, but it seems less like he's uninterested and more like he's just tired of it and has had to experience a lot in his lifetime.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Aug-2016 17:40:50

AesirWarrior
Jan Member 2021

AesirWarrior

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(I know I kind of said I wouldn't continue this debate, but I couldn't resist. It's interesting for some reason.)

- His muspah appearance doesn't really look like the real deal. It just has vaguely the same slug-like shape. I suppose you could argue that's just because of outdated graphics though.




- As for art, we do have at least one Muspah statue, though that was probably made on Gielinor.


- Also, Jhallan's dialogue heavily implies he's never seen one personally:

Yes, I was also taken by surprise by that, if you recall. During my slumber, I must have dreamt of the Muspah: a horrific creature from my people's imagination . It is a mythical being from our folk tales .

EDIT:

- I imagine with Azzanadra it might just be that his crush on Zaros heavily outweighs any respect he has/had for his own culture. Though him being young seems likely.

- I'd be willing to make a compromise and agree that they might have been a threat in very large numbers (assuming they ever were that common), but i do not believe an individual muspah or just a handful would be.
-
I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?
- We call it being a hero.

15-Aug-2016 17:52:01 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 18:05:17 by AesirWarrior

Maiden China

Maiden China

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Hazeel said :
Maiden China said :
but chaos dwarves arent overly interested in living peaceful civilian lives... so it's better to compare them to human warriors than to farmer joe
Even if I compare them to guards, I'm still putting my money on the Chaos Dwarf. XD
oh, I would too. Guards in runescape are usually only just as strong as they need to be to enforce the law... and rs is for the most part fairly peaceful so that doesn't take much (although... if rune is as awesome as the rs novels make it seem, the lumbridge guards would be far more powerful than they need to be)
compare the chaos dwarves to those random heroes in ardougne and you will be closer to what I was imagining Maiden China said :
me saying azzy might be one of the first mahjarrat Hazeel said :
you disagreeing and listing reasons
we will have to agree to disagree there. I personally feel his personality is often a good fit for a really old mahjarrat :P
maybe he's old enough to realize the mahj dont really have a culture or history (I do think it's a bit odd how devoted he is to zaros though)

sometimes old means 'stuck in their ways' and sometimes old means 'realizes change is needed'. In this case, I prefer the latter AesirWarrior said :
I'd be willing to make a compromise and agree that they might have been a threat in very large numbers (assuming they ever were that common), but i do not believe an individual muspah or just a handful would be.
we are in agreement :p
AesirWarrior said :
Also, Jhallan's dialogue heavily implies he's never seen one personally
I'd say the fact his muspah looks different (although really similar) ingame is entirely due to outdated graphics and since the new graphics were probably (most likely) even based on the one jhallan turned into... that entire factor is..
Carn

15-Aug-2016 20:01:19 - Last edited on 15-Aug-2016 20:18:06 by Maiden China

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