RuneScape Forum Archive | After Endgame

Aug

2023

T Ancalagon

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Padomenes said :
T Ancalagon said :
) And Zaros also mutilated Zamorak for an unknown reason in Children of Mah infront of the mahjarrat. It wasn't just his "pride", it was insecurity that his order will fail and everything all hell will go loose. His life experience taught him steps including drastic ones that need to be taken to maintain order and he hints he doesn't even like it or even hates having to do it but that there is no other way. [/quote]

So your defence of Saradomins behaviour is to say that Zaros did the same to Zamorak. Correct me if I am wrong but Zaros and Saradomin are supposed to be two vastly different beings. We have known Zaros to be quite brutal often in his clinical experimentation- however my point is that for a good guy his actions were far to violently extreme and for a God of Wisdom he could have found a better way.

Also to the guy that said all the gods have been given shades of grey- this is true but this blight on Saradomins character is far to extreme IMO- it's Jagex fault to be honest for trying to pander to every little bit of feedback/criticism they get trying to please everyone. Love the Lore and the RS Gods!

21-Dec-2016 15:25:27

Ancient Drew

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Zaros is a god of dark energy whose first encounter with mortal life was with demons. In this case Chthonians, who had a bureaucratic system of pacts and law, and gained knowledge from what they eat. This meant that the governing bodies and councillors got to power through finding loopholes in said contracts and got to eat their rivals (which is usually deemed illegal in exception to the government punishing criminals) in order to grow in power and intelligence. But the funny thing to note is that in Fate of the Gods, Zaros mentions that

"they were not monsters. They were vastly intelligent, their pursuits cultural and artistic."

I believe this comes to show that in spite of his brutal and manipulative practices, Zaros isn't necessarily malicious.

It is true, every faction leader does have their own shade of grey. In fact, there isn't one spectrum but a multitude, such as order/chaos, war/peace, control/freedom etc. And none of the gods sits at the pinnacle of the end of these spectra; in fact, spectra aren't even lines going left to right. They are rings instead, which means that if one were to try and sit at one end and become extreme, they would end up on the other side. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

21-Dec-2016 15:36:40

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

T Ancalagon said :
To you. No, basically Saradomin had as a result from his observations of civilisations that fell + experiences developed a strict thesis for maintaining order with step-by-step processes to prevent chaos permanently he strictly adheres in the name of maintaining order by preventing cracks from appearing. Focused on seeing very far into how present actions impact future. You really have to read his dialogue about his bad experiences with chaos or as a justicar on Teragard.

The aim would be to stop any cracks from appearing in the system, otherwise they would spread and lead to its collapse I imagine. He is convinced it works because in the past he kept seeing others' approach fail, and its always worked out for him. The best way to convince him would be if it somehow "failed" just like it happened to Zaros.

Because from his current experiences, and even you can see it his current approach to order has literally never failed. Managing to keep his empire alive from the second age or third age all the way to the sixth age. Something would have to happen that is the opposite in intended results, to convince him that its a failure and needs to change. Maybe something that leads to it crumbling somehow and suddenly failing to protect his people.

He already hints he doesn't even like it nor find it pleasant but feels forced to do it to preserve order so things do not fall into chaos even slowly long-term. Everytime he gets angry due to his order being violated its because of insecurity that it will crack, like a person saying "This system was made to protect you, I made it because I know (bad thing) will happen if not followed! You endangered the lives of your fellow people by doing that, how selfish of you. You knew what would happen to us if not followed. You're a monster!" kind of rage with the fear of what would happen in mind if nobody was there to fight during that war.

21-Dec-2016 15:37:27 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 15:54:43 by Padomenes

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Vardan said :
Derack said :

Zamorak: He's still Zamorak to me. When he and Arma encountered, he told him what i always thought about him. It is HIS fault for the death of his species, Zamorak wanted the other gods dead, unknow what the consequences would be.

In the end, all are guilty, perhaps, one more then the other.
Do you think Zamorak is a "good" person? After seeing him taunt Armadyl like that it's pretty clear he has no real regret, which makes for an interesting contrast to Saradomin who seems to have a lot of it but doesn't let it influence him. I was kinda disappointed Zammy let himself get influenced by Zaros' aura again, even if he was without his divine protection.

Also would you let Zamorak kill Seren? He seems to really want to.

Zimzam got his good sides and his bad sides.

Define "good person".
He cares for his followers and kin even those that are with Zaros, treats Moia like his own daughter, like Arma and Sara he is a father. He may not show much regret about the many deads he caused, But i don't espect it from someone like Zammy, the way how he grew up and lived it does makes people more ruthless, for better or worse.

Then again, does the Wg even show it too? ( (i) don't deny how many lives and wealth he/she has taken away for their own agenda.)

Show Zamorak respect, and he will show it too.

The way i see it; You are with him, against him, or you just don't stand in his way, anyway and how.

Of course, i'm just being bias.

I had the encounter with Zammy and Seren talking, told him to listen to her.
If Zamorak will try to kill Seren, i will try to stop it and let them try to talk it out. If all else fails, then it shall be so.

What about you towards Saradomin?

Edit: Havend got that encounter with Zammy getting influenced by Zaros' aura. It does intrigue how he has broken free from it.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

21-Dec-2016 15:55:07 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 16:00:26 by Derack

Padomenes

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Derack said :
What about you towards Saradomin? I have noted what you said and feel pity for Zamorak instead of outright hate for following a misguided philosophy so I can't bring myself to kill him unless he proved evil by heart, banish/rehabilitate maybe. That is why I did not allow him and Saradomin to fight in the maze. Saradomin also acknowledges but wants him gone because he believes him to be dangerous.

Saradomin shows himself to be very caring about you and concerned for your safety at the end when he greets you if you sided with him aswell. But he has a strict mindset he adheres to in order to prevent chaos from probably tragic life experiences where he witnessed it. His seen it and is very desperate for chaos to never happen again, even if he has to do something he really hates doing or feels great shame in. But just feels its compulsory, that there is no other way and is afraid of chaos happening more than anything else. If you could prove him wrong and show him that there is some other way to keep order "much better" than his current ways, plus works long-term too I'm sure he would change.

Or if his current thesis was somehow proven to be a failure like with Zaros and could not protect his people, with an opposite outcome intended that resulted in 'more chaos' somehow. Saradomin's goal in his approach to order is to try to stop as many cracks from appearing if possible, he sees very far into the future using the theory he developed for preventing a fall into chaos for civilisation. And so far his stubborn to keep it because its been proven to work, even in our eyes.

He would imagine things like when his seen people take advantage of mercy and stab somebody in the back that he jotted down in his thesis for maintenance of order. "No I will not make the same mistake they did so I will do this when I am faced with it."

21-Dec-2016 16:00:53 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 16:14:12 by Padomenes

Vardan

Posts: 1,237 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Derack said :
Vardan said :
Derack said :

Zamorak: He's still Zamorak to me. When he and Arma encountered, he told him what i always thought about him. It is HIS fault for the death of his species, Zamorak wanted the other gods dead, unknow what the consequences would be.

In the end, all are guilty, perhaps, one more then the other.

Zimzam got his good sides and his bad sides.

Define "good person".
He cares for his followers and kin even those that are with Zaros, treats Moia like his own daughter, like Arma and Sara he is a father. He may not show much regret about the many deads he caused, But i don't espect it from someone like Zammy, the way how he grew up and lived it does makes people more ruthless, for better or worse.

Show Zamorak respect, and he will show it too.

The way i see it; You are with him, against him, or you just don't stand in his way, anyway and how.

Of course, i'm just being bias.

What about you towards Saradomin?

Edit: Havend got that encounter with Zammy getting influenced by Zaros' aura. It does intrigue how he has broken free from it.
I was impressed Saradomin had the willpower to give Seren the Stone considering his addiction for it. If he tries to kill Seren or Armadyl without reason I'll oppose him. He and Seren are probably on good terms now though, I got them to part on good terms in the maze, and then she helped him out in the end. He and Armadyl seem to have fundamental disagreements on how to deal with problems like the Dragonkin, but both of them seem perfectly ok with teaming up to kill Zamorak so we'll see what happens.

What do you think of Zamorak's death? It doesn't sound pleasant...

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

21-Dec-2016 16:15:16

Oct

2021

LadyScalpel

Posts: 73 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zaros: Disliked him even before he appeared ingame, so wasn't surprised when his dangerous and manipulative character was revealed more; his plan turned out to be delusional crap and he was told to get out. It's clear he wants to ascend to elder godhood by any means, couldn't care less about other beings and their problems and views the world as a scene for his controlling and scheming.

Seren: I like her more in this quest, she's more rational and restrained. Also thwarting Zaros's plans was a right thing to do.

Saradomin: If it was possible to make my opinion about him even worse this quest did it. I despise all the shameless speeches we listened from him in this quest; they could make a nice ideological background for any atrocious dictatorship out there.

Armadyl: This quest did a good job at making him more meaningful and interesting. He had an eye-opening dialogue with Zamorak in the maze and looks like he's starting to face the truth.

Zamorak: I liked mostly what he had to say in my version of the quest, although I had two real problems with him. First, this:

" I love fighting a foe with a code of honour. It's like I've already won."

I would in no way endorse these words. I also hated his taunting about burning aviansies, but to be fair Armadyl started it:

• Armadyl: Gentlemen please, there is a time and a place for this argument and neither of them are now. (Then Zamorak arrives)
• Armadyl: On second thoughts if we're going to unleash our rage somewhere, I think the perfect target has just dropped in.

• Zamorak:Try it. It's been so long since I've had the pleasure of watching an aviansie burn.
• Armadyl: I'LL KILL YOU!
• Saradomin:Yes! Armadyl, together we can destroy him once and for all!

This quest made me like Zamorak less. Now I kind of like Seren and Armadyl too.

21-Dec-2016 16:15:39

Padomenes

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Secondly, along time ago I had a theory and it turns out I am right. Saradomin was trumatised by experiences of chaos as Zamorak was to order. Both have good hearts and I want neither to die, Zamorak is just misguided in values I believe. If I had to see Saradomin kill him I would probably like the option to request he blindfold us so the screen is dark until its over.

To break it down for you: The reason why Saradomin seems "arrogant" is because he believed he has developed a system of doing order in a definite way that makes it literally 100% impenetrable by chaos. Which was proven to him as he saw it work while all civilisations fell around him.

His view of Seren and Armadyl would be: "They have good ideas but I guarantee you sadly they will not last. Someday they will fall to chaos inevitably. Why won't they just listen to me? I have found a way that works so good which can stop this."

So this might have you call him an "idiot" instead but that's clearly not true when both you and him plus Zaros can see that his system is infact invincible to chaos. Look at all the civs that fell and only his is still standing plus the oldest.

So whenever you go against it his fears of chaos all come flooding back and he gets angry.

21-Dec-2016 16:26:26 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 16:47:01 by Padomenes

Apr

2023

SixOfOne

Posts: 83 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

My thoughts:

Zaros: I still consider myself Zarosian and providing I feel that he has the best plan for the fate of Geilinor that will most likely not change. That doesn't mean I approve of him though. I did like how manipulative he has been shown to be recently and I feel that Jagex are doing a good of showing how flawed he is since the starting point in FotG. Also, for all the people hating on Azzanadra because of Moia consider this. When walking down the street you find a human-animal hybrid and can't be sure of what it is or wants. Do you immediately accept it for what it is? Now put yourself in Azzys' shoes and imagine that you're thousands of years old and probably one of the older of your kind.

Seren: Still fairly neutral on Seren, but would be better if I felt she was more focussed on the Elder Gods not trying to stop Zaros. If they were working together it would be best, but that is incredibly unlikely.

Saradomin: While I may not like him, he is becoming a well written and completely human character. It was nice to get his point of view on everything. So congratulations to Jagex for that. I can also appreciate why people follow him based on what he believes.

Armadyl: Good to find out more about him and nice that he is accepting of his own flaws. In future I would like to know more of his backstory; especially with regards to his 'forbidden weapon'. This would most like help give his character some flaws. Most likely my second favourite god.

Zamorak: Neutral towards, although I regret not helping him in Dishonour amoungst thieves. I understand why he believes what he does and I find merit in that. While I do feel he is still bloodthirsty it does make sense with his background. I also liked the fact that he was confrontational in the maze bearing in mind he is one of the more powerful Gods when divinity is out of the question. Picking a fight with Seren would've been stupid though. I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes

21-Dec-2016 16:38:25

Dec

2023

Mewzard

Posts: 954 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

LadyScalpel said :
Saradomin: If it was possible to make my opinion about him even worse this quest did it. I despise all the shameless speeches we listened from him in this quest; they could make a nice ideological background for any atrocious dictatorship out there.

It's kinda sad that so much of Saradomin's end is locked off if you oppose him, as I found my opinion of him growing in many areas after talking with him (without racing him, you don't even get Saradomin's "weakness" that was alluded to earlier).

Even as a mortal, Saradomin was dedicated to Law and Order as a Justicar of Teragard (aka a Sheriff) defending the innocent people even as he had to deal with corruption and greed in his world, that it became his life's driving force, even into godhood.

Hearing of his life, the sadness of what the millennia does to old memories and mementos, the hard choices for an honest attempt at helping others, feeling uncertain about how much humanity is left after all this time...yet willing to give up the greatest power he could obtain for his goals, considering it a small price to pay for, as far as we're aware, his last surviving family member, his daughter.

In both good and bad ways, Jagex has continued to humanize Saradomin, despite his attempts to deny that it's still a part of him. Man, I wish we could have gotten, say, Armadyl or Seren's reaction to some of this, it would have been interesting to see their reaction (and vice versa of course).

Still arrogant, that needs work on, but I was able to help him see the wisdom of others in a few occasions, and that's the first step towards improvement (the Stone of Jas could have been used to help build his dream Utopia, but I convinced him there are other, better ways...and he listened, and agreed...maybe there's a little of that Armadylian optimism left somewhere in his heart, probably where his daughter is as well).

21-Dec-2016 16:38:41 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 16:39:37 by Mewzard

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