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The Void & Goddess of the Void

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Jimmy D Hide

Jimmy D Hide

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you do realize void rangers are just going to be a target to pjers, straight up void rangers have what 64-70 at the most without str and att? 70 cb , and with the ballista to maul combo is just insane especially when you can see what hp you're going to hit on os buddy it's pretty much a shoo-in. If berserkers whatever don't want to fight a void then they don't have to, they can fight other berserkers, you're going to ruin this game again, and osrs will go to nothing again. Ballista is stupid, what's wrong with pking how it always been? You realize you're changing osrs again... now 90 percent of your changes been unarguably suitable but it only takes one or two horrific ones to ruin the game completely so watch yourself...

22-Jul-2016 19:59:02

Rondstat

Rondstat

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Man, I'm sorry, I missed this thread the first time around. It's a year later, but I'm ready to reply to it.

I remember after one of our discussions, I decided to actually do some research of my own into Husserlian phenomenology - after which I promptly went silent. Apologies. But I did in fact do my homework back then, and while I don't have quite your love of philosophy, it's an undeniably useful framework for parsing the intricacies of this universe.

The dominion of a concept is always a tricky thing to define, especially something that's essentially an absence. Does every iota of being in the multiverse entail its own universe of empty potential? Comparing it against the domains of the other elders does us little good, either. Are creation, destruction, time the same on every plane? Does relativity exist in this universe? Is there a base nebula, out of which the elders spin discrete spheres of existence, each bound to its own laws and strata of existence?

I quite like your description of the abyss as a realm of potential that bleeds over from complete realms. I'm not sure I'd make that exclusive to the abyss, though.

One of the more interesting pieces of evidence in the whole void debacle appears in Spirit of Summer, when we, together with the Bonde family, actually meet within the void, a realm of apparent nothingness. I'd suggest that this is a space of pure objectivity. A space where the 'existences' of Runescape bleed over in infinite iterations, but remain undefined, and essentially non-existent, without the intuition of an observer.

In Spirit of Summer, the adventurer and each of the Bondes is empty potential, intuited and given permanence in a single moment as an observer requires; but there is no subjectivity. Each observer possesses no intention of its own, only existing as an entity for the infinitesimal moment of time that the situation requires it.

23-Jul-2016 08:47:36

Rondstat

Rondstat

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This sort of gets back to the notion of 'self,' which (for me, at least), is the trickiest part of this whole fictional universe's framework. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the concept of a continuous void allows for a solipsistic multiverse, but my money's on individual agency playing a sizable role in... uh... elder creation. Or whatever name you'd give to the establishment of time, creation, destruction, and void.

I don't mean to be subversive here, but consider this: if the void is less a condition of emptiness, empty ideas, but more a stratum of infinite not-things, it allows the void to continue to function as an empty canvas on which potentials are manifest (lolz), while also allowing it to be a space for intentionless objects that are contradictory and incomplete.

Did you ever read Flatland? I'm reminded of the point in Lineland or the square in Spaceland. These pure objects exist for a nothingth of a second, have a nothingth of aboutness, and make a nothingth of sense. They are very nearly non-existent, and there is very nearly no idea of them. But they still have some relational distance to perceivable reality. A distance that varies. And bridging this distance (I know, it's iffy, but work with me here), can make these pure non-objects drastically real, as their noesis fills in the gaps and they suddenly manifest as something abominable (like, say, a spirit beast or a void critter).

Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm walking this too far to try to make two contradictory theories work together. But, you know, it's a thought.

Great thread, as always.

23-Jul-2016 09:06:23

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

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Hmmm, I think Raven was right. You're looking far too hard at this, grasping at straws that aren't even there to start with. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense in a way, but not for RuneScape specifically.
It has recently been stated somewhere (Zaros only knows where I saw it) that the Abyss is what's "left over" from each cycle of the universe. This has been confirmed by WenKra, who does speak for (though not is) Wen herself. The Abyss itself is a world between worlds in this dimension, which is why it allows for teleportation and for access to other planes (each Runecrafting altar is said to be its own pocket world). It even explains the existence of Abyssal creatures, as the leftover imperfect anima (which is what we know creates sentient life) is dumped together and creates odd monstrosities from the jumble of each worlds animas specific creations.
Looking back to Dimension of Disaster (and my Quantum Multiverse theory), I would guess that the Void itself is the space between Dimensions. Guthix cut into the universe in an attempt to travel to another plane.. but he cut too deep. Instead of cutting into the Abyss, he took it a step further and accidentally cut into the Void itself. Unfortunately for him, his cut still had to open up somewhere. It opened up into a world with weird teleporting "pests," and these Pests eventually took to the Void and started coming to Gielinor. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

25-Jul-2016 08:03:45

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As for the Corporeal/Spirit Beast, this is something I've long looked at. It was stated by one of the tormented farmhands during Summers End that the Spirit Beast was created by the suffering and destruction that came when Zamorak went AWOL with the Catalyst. Up until Summers End, it existed in the Spirit Realm.
The Spirit Realm itself is a parallel plane of the Wilderness, but the opposite. In many ways, it's like the Shadow Realm, a parallel realm to Gielinor. How exactly this fits in Lore isn't clear, but I believe that the Spirit Realm was actually created by the surge of power from the Catalyst. Perhaps the destruction of Forinthry was so vast and so quick that the afterlife itself couldn't keep up, and as such, the self-maintaining universe made a "quickfix" of sorts. It just recreated everything around it, but threw it into the Void, to separate it from itself. All the dark souls that were destroyed became attached to a new parallel plane.. and many ended up forming the Spirit Beast and its core (hence the name SPIRIT Beast?).
In Summers End, the Beast decided it wanted to eat moar soulz, so it impatiently clawed through the Dimension barrier.. the Void. This is where things get interesting. It's a parallel dimension, so why go through the Void, right? Well what if the portals we use to get to the Spirit Realm ARE portals through the Void? If that's the case, the Spirit Beast was taking the most direct route between the Spirit Realm and Gielinor. If it has to forge its own path through the emptiness of the Void, then it's possible for others to do so as well.

BUT that's just my take on it. I've made many theories, but this one just fit together the best. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

25-Jul-2016 08:20:29

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Hey, Rondstat and Sepulchre,

It's neat to see this thread resurrected, even if accidentally.

Rondstat, I think it's really cool that you did the research. I'll respond here question by question and kind of off the cuff. Rondstat said :
Does every iota of being in the multiverse entail its own universe of empty potential? I don't know if I'd call it potential - since that suggests a kind of readiness to become actual, but I am convinced at least by the claim that any real or imagined individual can be thought to constitute a world of its own - this is a claim concerning simple thinkability, a transcendental claim. Certainly we could have a thicker conception of worlds, defined according to less formal concepts like time, space, causality, etc. Rondstat said :
Are creation, destruction, time the same on every plane? Does relativity exist in this universe? I think the account in this thread could support relativity. Mod Raven once endorsed some kind of planar relativity. But I think the current talk of planes as planets in one spatial manifold, the Edicts as "physical" (I struggle to reconcile myself to so crude an account of magic.), etc. is becoming less and less sensitivity to relativities. I think it's best for our theorizing to stay neutral on this question. Rondstat said :
Is there a base nebula, out of which the elders spin discrete spheres of existence, each bound to its own laws and strata of existence? I don't think so. I recently posted an extremely long summary of the history of magic among Gielinor's humans on Last Prophet's On Chaos Druids which describes the different laws of the planes in terms of differences among "native spirits" in each plane - all magic is related back to spirits there. I hope to work out what exactly I mean by a spirit, which I'll try to do by drawing on Owen Barfield's Poetic Diction .

25-Jul-2016 16:29:15

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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But you rightly anticipate that this leads back to an idealist metaphysics. Nothing underlies the planes, shadow realms, and abyss - they just are; they appear to us as subjects. The realms of light appear in a privileged way, and the shadow realms and abyss and void with a derivative sort of being. Though to answer your question about the abyss, I think the abyss and void appear with a kind of atemporality - like the laws of geometry as eternally valid, though abstracted from real being. I treat the abyss more thoroughly on Last Prophet's thread.

And I think I've finally worked out a way to deal with the difficulties in Summer's End: at the end of my recent summary . All of this leads to a view according to which being is mysterious - there always remains a question of why things are at all - so I've developed a history of magic that describes human magics from the late 2nd age through the 4th as mysticism.

25-Jul-2016 16:29:42

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Anyway, I don't think an idealist metaphysics has to be solipsistic, but it certainly needs a kind of mysticism to rescue it from solipsism. I totally agree that the self is the most difficult concept in the metaphysics here, and maybe metaphysics generally. Rondstat said :
I don't mean to be subversive here, but consider this: if the void is less a condition of emptiness, empty ideas, but more a stratum of infinite not-things, it allows the void to continue to function as an empty canvas on which potentials are manifest (lolz), while also allowing it to be a space for intentionless objects that are contradictory and incomplete. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "intentionless," but I think I agree with your idea but would want to attribute the function to the abyss. This is returning to Husserl a bit, but I would describe the "abyssal void" as the realm of all thinkable concepts and the corresponding imaginable individual instantiations, and I would distinguish the abyss from the void like this: the abyss is the stratum of the material contents, and the void is the formal layer devoid of experienceable content, which overlays equally the abyss, the shadow realms, and the realms of light... I hope I am not misunderstanding your point and drifting off into gibberish here (if I did not do so much earlier). Rondstat said :
Did you ever read Flatland? I LOVE Flatland - it inspired my username. I've used Attila as my gamer name ever since I read a book about Attila the Hun when I was about 8, and then I changed my RuneScape name to AttilaSquare, after A. Square, after I read Flatland .

25-Jul-2016 16:30:09

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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I'm not sure about the rest of the theory there. Because I'm following Husserl, even space is a material concept rather than a voidal concept. Husserl distinguishes, for example, between a "Euclidean space" and a "Euclidean manifold." They correspond exactly, but the former includes intuitional content of space while the latter is wholly formal, drawing nothing from the imagination.

Thank you again for all this, Rondstat. I also hope you like the history of magic too. Maybe we could continue our conversation with that, since it's a bit broader in its scope.

25-Jul-2016 16:30:24

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