RuneScape Forum Archive | JMod Quotes on Saradomin

Padomenes

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They should have done the flaws in a way that shows the pros/cons of their philosophies rather than them just lashing out. They should have made it that Saradomin/Order is an environment that is secure and warm in the pros but "very suffocating with little space" in the cons. And Zamorak "very free and creative" but "too cold" in the cons. Show order, chaos and their pros/cons. The intention in DoC1 was probably to depict the "suffocating" part of Order/"Saradomin but it was very poorly done to convey it into people's heads.

Instead of "Garlandia" they should have depicted how "suffocating and devoid of individual autonomy" New Domina is.

15-May-2016 07:37:54 - Last edited on 15-May-2016 07:50:28 by Padomenes

DS Abolish

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Profiling.

But reading the first page, I think it is important to keep in mind that the J-Mod quotes are old, that different J-Mods may have different biases and opinions, that lore changes, and that the in-game should take precedence if it seems to contradict old J-Mod speculations.

Case-in-point. Osbourne says "He is not someone who would smite anyone who doesn't follow him. He only takes on those who threaten his people or himself." But he did essentially smite Garlandia, who did not threaten Saradomin or his followers and just did not want to go to war. Likewise, in Hero's Welcome, V talks extensively about how Saradomin and his followers seem to convert those who do not follow Saradomin with violence, and V takes steps to protect his people from being violently attacked by Saradominists. Given both these pieces of evidence, Saradomin seems both intolerant and quite willing to smite people who do not agree with his ways given the right emotional stimuli.

Also, I am a utilitarian kind of person, but I don't think that the Naragi genocide or the Zarosian extermination qualify as events that were justified. At the very least, neither Saradomin nor his followers have made any attempt to justify them.

02-Jun-2016 21:44:58 - Last edited on 02-Jun-2016 21:48:25 by DS Abolish

Aug

2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@ DS Hero

Well, Mod Moltare, the designer for World Event 2, did say on Twitter that Garlandia's story was biased.

It's also never been said by any official source (ingame or otherwise) that Saradomin committed "genocide" against the naragi - In fact, I'd consider the fact that Guthix and his community lived within sight of Askroth for the entire centuries-long duration of the memories and took in refugees without any apparent fear of harm to effectively disprove the idea.

Zarosians being exterminated is also something that isn't discussed in canon, apart from the Nex's followers book (unless I'm forgetting something) - The contents of said book seeming to pin such acts on Zamorakians. I did actually have a forum thread a while back exploring the sources and why this seems to me to largely be a player-made concept. Armadyl took part in the dismantling of the empire too, remember (Azzanadra's memory from the Mahjarrat Memories even shows a desire for revenge against Armadyl), and I doubt he'd be up for that kind of thing. If this was anything like the historical Christianization of the Roman Empire, the newly Christian rulers didn't "exterminate" the pagans.

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

02-Jun-2016 22:14:32 - Last edited on 02-Jun-2016 22:21:16 by William Witt

DS Abolish

Posts: 5,575 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

William Witt said :
@ DS Hero

Well, Mod Moltare, the designer for World Event 2, did say on Twitter that Garlandia's story was biased.

It's also never been said by any official source (ingame or otherwise) that Saradomin committed "genocide" against the naragi - In fact, I'd consider the fact that Guthix and his community lived within sight of Askroth for the entire centuries-long duration of the memories and took in refugees without any apparent fear of harm to effectively disprove the idea.

Zarosians being exterminated is also something that isn't discussed in canon, apart from the Nex's followers book (unless I'm forgetting something) - The contents of said book seeming to pin such acts on Zamorakians. I did actually have a forum thread a while back exploring the sources and why this seems to me to largely be a player-made concept. Armadyl took part in the dismantling of the empire too, remember (Azzanadra's memory from the Mahjarrat Memories even shows a desire for revenge against Armadyl), and I doubt he'd be up for that kind of thing. If this was anything like the historical Christianization of the Roman Empire, the newly Christian rulers didn't "exterminate" the pagans.

As far as the mods are concerned, everything in the game is "biased." At some point you need to look at the evidence you have and come to a reasonable conclusion.

Wars and genocide take time. And from Guthix's memories, clearly many Naragi were afraid. At some point, Saradomin defended them from Tuska, but that doesn't stop the fact that he destroyed their city and sent out aggressive armies just because the Naragi did not want to worship him or whatever.

The Zarosian Extermination has many sources in game. You can read the Book of the Gods for the God Emissaries. The Zarosian Bandits become aggressive if you wear an item aligning with Zamorak or Saradomin but not if you wear a line aligning with Armadyl. And when you talk with Zaros, Zaros...

03-Jun-2016 03:22:09

DS Abolish

Posts: 5,575 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

... indirectly mentions the Zarosian extermination, saying that Saradomin sought his secrets, either to steal them or to bury them. Also, in Ritual of the Mahjarrat, when you bring up Zarosians to Akrisae, he says that as a Saradominist, they are just as much an enemy to him as the Zamorakians. And don't forget the Wise Old Man's actions to try and conceal the existence of Zaros from adventurers who visit his home. All of this points to the Saradomin extermination being a real thing. There is even a wikia page on it. Could Saradomin have had (or thought that he had) good reasons for it? Maybe yes, maybe no- the player has not had the opportunity to ask him. But it is something that Saradomin has to answer for in order to convince us that it was the right course of action. Otherwise, not only should we believe that the Zarosian extermination is canon, but we should see it as being consistent with other pieces of evidence about Saradomin and the behavior of his followers (see V's testimony).

03-Jun-2016 03:27:34 - Last edited on 03-Jun-2016 03:30:31 by DS Abolish

Dec

2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

#StopSaradomin

Guthix implied that he was just as bad as the other 'gods' he encountered on Naragun before the race was wiped out. If there's one god that I can't find any single reason to question the motives and words of... it's Guthix. A

World Guardian

must learn to find

Balance

in themselves.
Only then can they

Control

themselves and forge their own

Fate .

03-Jun-2016 06:57:06

DS Abolish

Posts: 5,575 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Sepulchre said :
#StopSaradomin

Guthix implied that he was just as bad as the other 'gods' he encountered on Naragun before the race was wiped out. If there's one god that I can't find any single reason to question the motives and words of... it's Guthix.

Guthix was not a very good god either, although preventing more god wars might or might not have lead to a better state of affairs on Gielinor than his death did.

03-Jun-2016 20:49:45

DS Abolish

Posts: 5,575 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I willingly gave Saradomin the wand in Death of Chivalry because he seemed to be sincere (although I did not unlock dialogue on the Naragi in the quest), and I do intend to work with him in future quests if our interests align. However, For reasons I have mentioned, I do not think I ought to follow Saradomin at this time.

One other, very minor reason- he is incredibly arrogant in Missing, Presumed Death.

03-Jun-2016 20:51:35

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

From what we know, Saradomin's "extermination" of the Zarosians was limited to imprisoning Nex and taking the lands of what he believed to be a dead god. Things that Zamorak, Bandos and Armadyl were also guilty of. And the Zarosian empire wasn't exactly a good place to live, especially for the humans. Maybe Saradomin thought he was doing the right thing by taking control of an empire where civilians were routinely eaten and tithed by demons and vampyres? The worst you can probably attribute to him is some of his followers covering up the existence of Zaros.

It's also worth noting that when Desert Treasure was written, Zaros was very much intended to be a villainous character. And Saradomin and Zamorak were the only prominent gods, which is why they were specifically namedropped. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

03-Jun-2016 23:28:21

Aug

2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Thank you, Wahisietel.

And DS Hero, genocide may take time, but like I said - Guthix and his community were within sight of Askroth for the *whole* of the memories, from Saradomin's arrival to his departure. It'd be a very poor genocide if you neglected to kill the people parked right on your doorstep, don't you think?

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

06-Jun-2016 21:54:33 - Last edited on 06-Jun-2016 21:55:40 by William Witt

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JMod Quotes on Saradomin