RuneScape Forum Archive | Saradominists should be weary

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Astraea L said :
Summerleaf said :
*Insert an hours worth of debate from Lore FC via raging Saradominists* So apparently anything I say in Saradomin's defense is raging, even if I'm using reasonable arguments without getting angry or insulting anyone? Oh well, believe what you want to believe.

I posted this literally after we had that long debate. That post is a troll, if anything.

Ancient Drew said :

As for Saradomin's teachings, he preaches heavily on morality, which means that all of his followers are in fact more than willing to help someone out, especially if they want to do good, even if it puts themselves in danger. They basically try their best to be good and save as many people as they possibly can, and trust Saradomin because there hasn't really been evidence of any of his order failing as of yet.

It "failed" on Teragard. The Magisters use a false image of Sara to make the people fearful.

Also, I think during the last Lore Corner, it was mentioned that Saradomin says that his followers can do what they wish, as he has to focus on the bigger picture, but some of his followers basically pressure others. I mean, there's a clear path of prejudice amongst his orders and human followers, such as the white knights.

Swolllliosis said :

If a few individuals offer to risk their lives to help save Adrastreia, that is fine, but for Saradomin to bring all his followers into this mess, toss them all aside, and go against all his teachings is unacceptable. That's like when Tumeken blew himself up and dragged all the innocent people down with him that were avoiding the war. I am not sinking with the Titanic.

In the long run, Tumeken actually saved more people, and protected their culture. It's a good analogy, but not comparable to this situation, imo.

12-Feb-2017 00:56:48 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 01:08:43 by Summerleaf

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Swolllliosis said :
Wahisietel said :

If Armadyl had a choice between the life of his only remaining family member and giving Zaros the Stone of Jas, he'd give Zaros the stone, no doubt about it.

Perhaps there may a slim chance you may be right, but the fact of the matter now in this day in age is that he currently has no family to deter from his goals,only his followers - which, right not, makes him a more considerable better choice of god, in my opinion.

However, you cannot be so certain he would give us all up so easily. Would Seren give up her elves to save her brother? She was certainly sad that Zaros was killed by Zamorak, yes, but she didn't even dare involve her elves into this.

I think Armadyl and Seren share the position of they would rather die (hyperbole), than have a single one more of their followers harmed.

Feel free to debate that tho.

Seren at least has the T2 powers to protect herself. Armadyl is significantly more vulnerable.

12-Feb-2017 01:08:12

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

There isn't anything wrong with pursuing what is right, if I had to choose to sacrifice millions to save one(s) who mattered to me or a beloved pet even I would do it.

Why would you sacrifice whoever loved(+ has done alot for) you the most to save a group of people who could potentially do the opposite or not care for you in general?

12-Feb-2017 02:19:19 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 02:31:24 by Padomenes

Aug

2023

William Witt

Posts: 12,465 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Summerleaf said :
such as the white knights.

Ah, you mean the knights who defied their bishop and fought the Varrock guard to protect Zamorakian citizens from the Inquisition of Saradomin.

Or perhaps the knights who became affronted when they mistook Doric for a classist, telling him that Saradomin "was not an exclusive god".

Or the knights who (along with the Kinshra) actively tried to persuade the King of Falador not to listen to the Church of Saradomin when they wanted him to restrict the authority of the Void Knights.

Or who enjoy a friendly relationship with the dwarves, and have worked with the Guardians of Armadyl and Guthixian Crux Eqal.

Those knights?

Not sure where you've got this impression of them. As far as Saradominists go, they're jolly decent fellows.

Anyway, Armacus. Good to see you participating on the lore forum more.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think if he *hadn't* been willing to make sacrifices for his daughter, other lorehounds might equally judge *that* as bad. I personally consider it a humanizing trait. Good to see that even at least one usual critic of Saradomin agrees with him on this particular point.

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

12-Feb-2017 02:34:02 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 02:36:59 by William Witt

iXavior

Posts: 390 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Padomenes said :
There isn't anything wrong with pursuing what is right, if I had to choose to sacrifice millions to save one(s) who mattered to me or a beloved pet even I would do it.

Why would you sacrifice whoever loved(+ has done alot for) you the most to save a group of people who could potentially do the opposite or not care for you in general?

Wow you must sleep very good at night knowing you might have killed millions of people.

I don't see how you can look at yourself in the mirror knowing what you did was justified... Also, these aren't just random people. They are Saradomin's own followers. They probably do care for him, and they have all helped him in his mission to establish a world of order. I kinda agree with the OP on this one. This is control at it's finest. Saradomin is just tossing all his followers aside without at least having hear what they ALL say about this. Saying "persuing what is right" basically makes every god's action justifiable.

Also, how do we even know Adrastreia loves her father, like you may assume? He seems pretty strict. Locking her up and not letting barely anyone know of her existence and what not. She's not like any old private citizen. She is a child of a god and is going to have to be protected securely. It's like watching Tangled all over again. How do you know she didn't ran off and purposely or accidentally ended up at the Obsidian Tribunal? I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

12-Feb-2017 02:54:25 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 03:04:18 by iXavior

Swolllliosis

Posts: 161 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Zulkir said :
Although Saradominists should be weary, that's more to do with their own self destruction rather than what their god will do.

But I don't fault Saradomin for what he did.

To a Parent, their child's life IS worth countless other lives, Worth giving up near limitless power, worth all the humiliation, danger, consequences and sacrifices that it takes in order to keep them safe. Take into account that to a parent there should be no higher priority than being said parent.

This does not excuse why he made a pact with Zaros in the first place. Could he not have found Adrastreia herself?

Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken

| Twitter: @RSTemekel

12-Feb-2017 04:10:10

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Swolllliosis said :
Zulkir said :
Although Saradominists should be weary, that's more to do with their own self destruction rather than what their god will do.

But I don't fault Saradomin for what he did.

To a Parent, their child's life IS worth countless other lives, Worth giving up near limitless power, worth all the humiliation, danger, consequences and sacrifices that it takes in order to keep them safe. Take into account that to a parent there should be no higher priority than being said parent.

This does not excuse why he made a pact with Zaros in the first place. Could he not have found Adrastreia herself? Where is it to be said that he hasn't tried to do so already? What if he has but then "the case went cold"?

12-Feb-2017 05:26:00 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 06:41:50 by Padomenes

Feb

2020

Questcaping

Posts: 565 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Swolllliosis said :

Questcaping said :

Original message details are unavailable.
Saradomin: No. Not now! I should have known.

This genuinely seems like a surprise to him. Perhaps he focused too much on the prospect of his daughter being returned to him, to the extent that it blinded him to Zaros's end of the deal? Regardless, the exact circumstances should absolutely be kept in mind.

You are forgetting what Saradomin immediately said about that.

Saradomin: "Then your price is a small one to pay."

Meaning he has made his ultimate decision, concluding that the life of his little girl is worth WAY more than the potential threat of destroying all his followers. The safety of those he is worshiped by is mere frailty in comparison to the safety of his daughter, like a penny compared to a dollar.

I deliberately addressed that, though indirectly: as I said, his views on Zaros aren't particularly harsh, and he doesn't seem to view the guy as a specific threat -- his dialogue at the quest's beginning is mostly just criticising him for being too prone to delegation.

Which leads me to believe that he doesn't have much objection to Zaros in particular getting the Stone -- he's upset because it means he doesn't get his own blue hands on it, but Zaros having it instead ain't too bad, especially if he gets his daughter back.

A hypothetical, then: would he have made the same decision if Zamorak was offering to return Adrasteia to him, in return for "one action"? Honestly, I don't think he'd trust him to return her in the first place.

Questcaping the Finally Questcaped

Runefest attendee 2017-2019

12-Feb-2017 05:57:07

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

@Godwine, there's an equal number of negative things to go along with the white and temple knights, and we both know it. To be fair, I was tired when I wrote that and they were the first group that came to mind. That being said, again, we both know that some of his followers are heavily prejudicial and forceful.

Swolllliosis said :
Zulkir said :
Although Saradominists should be weary, that's more to do with their own self destruction rather than what their god will do.

But I don't fault Saradomin for what he did.

To a Parent, their child's life IS worth countless other lives, Worth giving up near limitless power, worth all the humiliation, danger, consequences and sacrifices that it takes in order to keep them safe. Take into account that to a parent there should be no higher priority than being said parent.

This does not excuse why he made a pact with Zaros in the first place. Could he not have found Adrastreia herself?

Zaros has the leisure of having powerful followers that are immensely loyal to him, as well as a massive information network.

"You guys do this, while I go do that thing," Zaros has, essentially, more "free time" than Saradomin has, and more power at his disposal to find what he's looking for.

I agree with Pado's follow up comment.

12-Feb-2017 07:58:44

Dec

2023

Mewzard

Posts: 954 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

This is one of the most positive humanizing moments in Saradomin's lore, I'm impressed by the jump to the worst case scenario.

Every god who could win was placed in a contract to give up the Stone of Jas and were willing. Zaros getting the Stone is not a guaranteed insta-armageddon. Losing the Stone temporarily is just that, temporary. He could get it back (what's another few years).

But if his daughter dies, that's it. Given how their current relationship sounds, I doubt Saradomin wanted to end things on negative terms. That would make the loss of a child a hundred-fold worse.

Even with the Stone of Jas gone, Saradomin has not given up on his dreams (it's still a personal passion):

Saradomin: I was so close. So close. I had the Stone. I cannot help but think how much I could have achieved with that much power. But then, in a moment, it was taken from me again. Forever. Still, I am Saradomin. I will create a utopia, for all races. I just now need to think of other paths.

Too bad nobody has transcripted the Saradomin chat at the end of Sliske's Endgame if you sided with him, it had a nice option where you remind Saradomin that there's a better path to Utopia, and he heeds your wisdom (a nice touch, given it was an area Saradomin had not been great in historically).

Summerleaf said :
It "failed" on Teragard. The Magisters use a false image of Sara to make the people fearful.

In Saradomin's defense, he doesn't know it failed. It worked when he left, and it sounds like it worked for a long time. Unfortunately, bad people eventually got into power and took advantage as best they could. I really want to see Saradomin's reaction to what Teragard has become and how he might fix the corruption. It would also give him a lot to reflect on.

12-Feb-2017 11:21:16

Forums

Saradominists should be weary