RuneScape Forum Archive | Saradominists should be weary

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

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Ancient Drew said :
Wahisietel said :
Ancient Drew said :
Wahisietel said :
If Armadyl was in the same situation, do you really think he wouldn't have done exactly the same thing? Because he definitely would have. We don't really know whether Adrastreia was actually sired by Saradomin or if he adopted her. But we do know that Armadyl adopted his kids.

Biological relation is irrelevant. Family is family. It does factor into it slightly, depending on culture. But whatever his relationship is with his daughter, at the end of the day it still suggests that Saradomin is just a normal human being; he would sacrifice the order he had built up (which took a ton of work; this is clearly shown with his self-pride) for that one person he loves more than anything else. In fact, she could be his last tie to humanity.

Armadly isn't a soiciopath, and Saradomin has made it clear that he will do whatever it takes to protect his adopted Icyene daughter. Wahi is correct here.

11-Feb-2017 20:08:59 - Last edited on 11-Feb-2017 20:10:08 by Summerleaf

Astraea L

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Summerleaf said :
*Insert an hours worth of debate from Lore FC via raging Saradominists* So apparently anything I say in Saradomin's defense is raging, even if I'm using reasonable arguments without getting angry or insulting anyone? Oh well, believe what you want to believe.

Skystone Jexel

, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and

Saradominist

Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

11-Feb-2017 20:34:15

Feb

2020

Questcaping

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Now, I'm not a Saradominist by any means (far from it, in fact), but I feel like any discussion of Saradomin's pact isn't quite fair without context.

We can assume that Zaros's pact with Saradomin was in the same vein as his pact with Zamorak: I do X for you, you do something for me in Sliske's game. X being "return your daughter", and the action in Sliske's game being undefined -- but likely with the stipulation of "you will know because I will refer to you as my Praetor Barbatus".

This changes the game somewhat. This isn't a direct deal of "Adrasteia <=> Stone of Jas". It's "Adrasteia <=> unspecified Endgame action", and that's the crucial difference.

That being said, Saradomin does present himself as the God of Wisdom, and really, shouldn't he have known? When there's an open offer like that on the table, it comes as no surprise that Zaros would cash it in at the moment it would be least possible to convince Saradomin in any other way: to go for the grand prize. I mean, Zammy saw it coming:

Original message details are unavailable.
Zamorak: Yes, I expect you to invoke it here. It is a fair exchange for the salvation of my people.

(speaking of which -- yes, it's de rigeur to play whack-a-Smurf round these parts, and I know I certainly have more sympathy for the 'devil', but Zimzam's not exactly flawlessly objective on this front either. He expected to be risking the Stone of Jas with this, and really, his deal was little more than being sure Zaros would actually go through with something that he was going to do anyway.)

Now let's take a look at Sara's dialogue.

Original message details are unavailable.
Saradomin: No. Not now! I should have known.

This genuinely seems like a surprise to him. Perhaps he focused too much on the prospect of his daughter being returned to him, to the extent that it blinded him to Zaros's end of the deal? Regardless, the exact circumstances should absolutely be kept in mind.

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11-Feb-2017 21:32:13

Feb

2020

Questcaping

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Regardless of what you think of the god as a person, I think this is an interesting aspect of Saradomin's character -- a "weakness" for which he casts aside his wisdom and all other goals. Discussing an aspect of a god's character isn't necessarily bashing or defending, nor is there very much achieved by ardently bashing or defending without considering anything else.

As for my own view, I get this on a personal level. In a state of desperation like this, you'll want your loved ones back -- and of course, that's the perfect state in which Zaros can manipulate him. Saradomin's views expressed on Zaros earlier in the quest merely dismiss him as an insufficient leader, rather than an enemy or very much of a danger; most of his opposition to Zaros gaining the Stone would likely have stemmed from the fact that it meant Saradomin himself not getting it. So, from his own point of view, I think that softens the loss for him somewhat... or rather, what would have been the loss had Kerapac not come along. Whether Zaros having the Stone would be a good thing is a different matter entirely, and not what's being discussed here.

And as a final note, I'm also interested to see what Adrasteia herself is like, rather than just what she means to her father. We know nothing about her, and it'd be interesting to see how she turned out.

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11-Feb-2017 21:41:00

Swolllliosis

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Wahisietel said :
If Armadyl was in the same situation, do you really think he wouldn't have done exactly the same thing? Because he definitely would have.

Heck, any of the gods would have done the same, except for Bandos.

Armadyl probably might have given himself up to save the majority or even his child, yes, but he wouldn't outweigh one life over the pact. Putting all his followers at risk again, especially after the trauma he dealt after his lost during the first Gold Wars, is too unjustifiable for his taste, unlike Saradomin, who always gets the final and ultimate say about what is justifiable and what is not. Does Saradomin really think just because he built civilization after civilization, it gives him the one and only divine privilege to decide the ultimate fate of his followers? I think not. A god shouldn't subjugate their powers over mortals like that.

Questcaping said :

Original message details are unavailable.
Saradomin: No. Not now! I should have known.

This genuinely seems like a surprise to him. Perhaps he focused too much on the prospect of his daughter being returned to him, to the extent that it blinded him to Zaros's end of the deal? Regardless, the exact circumstances should absolutely be kept in mind.

You are forgetting what Saradomin immediately said about that.

Saradomin: "Then your price is a small one to pay."

Meaning he has made his ultimate decision, concluding that the life of his little girl is worth WAY more than the potential threat of destroying all his followers. The safety of those he is worshiped by is mere frailty in comparison to the safety of his daughter, like a penny compared to a dollar.

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11-Feb-2017 23:50:52

Swolllliosis

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Summerleaf said :
Saradomin has made it clear that he will do whatever it takes to protect his adopted Icyene daughter. Wahi is correct here.

And this is what makes him quite dangerous. He could do something reckless again Saradominists be weary! Armadyl, on the other hand, says that he does not prefer to have the ultimate say in everything and that there should be a balance of power between gods and mortals.

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12-Feb-2017 00:04:33

Ancient Drew

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Swolllliosis said :
Summerleaf said :
Saradomin has made it clear that he will do whatever it takes to protect his adopted Icyene daughter. Wahi is correct here.

And this is what makes him quite dangerous. He could do something reckless again Saradominists be weary! Armadyl, on the other hand, says that he does not prefer to have the ultimate say in everything and that there should be a balance of power between gods and mortals. Every god poses a threat of some sort, in all honesty.

As for Saradomin's teachings, he preaches heavily on morality, which means that all of his followers are in fact more than willing to help someone out, especially if they want to do good, even if it puts themselves in danger. They basically try their best to be good and save as many people as they possibly can, and trust Saradomin because there hasn't really been evidence of any of his order failing as of yet.

I'm not really saying this to defend Saradomin (although I used to follow him at first before I found out about Zaros), it's just my opinion really. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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12-Feb-2017 00:14:08

Swolllliosis

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Ancient Drew said :

As for Saradomin's teachings, he preaches heavily on morality, which means that all of his followers are in fact more than willing to help someone out, especially if they want to do good, even if it puts themselves in danger. They basically try their best to be good and save as many people as they possibly can, and trust Saradomin because there hasn't really been evidence of any of his order failing as of yet.

I'm not really saying this to defend Saradomin (although I used to follow him at first before I found out about Zaros), it's just my opinion really.

If a few individuals offer to risk their lives to help save Adrastreia, that is fine, but for Saradomin to bring all his followers into this mess, toss them all aside, and go against all his teachings is unacceptable. That's like when Tumeken blew himself up and dragged all the innocent people down with him that were avoiding the war. I am not sinking with the Titanic.

Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken

| Twitter: @RSTemekel

12-Feb-2017 00:30:17 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 00:47:15 by Swolllliosis

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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Swolllliosis said :
Wahisietel said :
If Armadyl was in the same situation, do you really think he wouldn't have done exactly the same thing? Because he definitely would have.

Heck, any of the gods would have done the same, except for Bandos.

Armadyl probably might have given himself up to save the majority or even his child, yes, but he wouldn't outweigh one life over the pact. Putting all his followers at risk again, especially after the trauma he dealt after his lost during the first Gold Wars, is too unjustifiable for his taste, unlike Saradomin, who always gets the final and ultimate say about what is justifiable and what is not. Does Saradomin really think just because he built civilization after civilization, it gives him the one and only divine privilege to decide the ultimate fate of his followers? I think not. A god shouldn't subjugate their powers over mortals like that.

If Armadyl had a choice between the life of his only remaining family member and giving Zaros the Stone of Jas, he'd give Zaros the stone, no doubt about it. Even if that meant the deaths of others.

Armadyl already does a form of this "family for Stone of Jas" choice in the current version of the quest, it's just that the Aviansie as a whole are the closest thing to a family he has. Same for Zamorak and the Mahjarrat (a literal example in the case of Khazard). You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

12-Feb-2017 00:33:38 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 00:34:44 by Wahisietel

Swolllliosis

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Wahisietel said :

If Armadyl had a choice between the life of his only remaining family member and giving Zaros the Stone of Jas, he'd give Zaros the stone, no doubt about it.

Perhaps there may a slim chance you may be right, but the fact of the matter now in this day in age is that he currently has no family to deter from his goals,only his followers - which, right not, makes him a more considerable better choice of god, in my opinion.

However, you cannot be so certain he would give us all up so easily. Would Seren give up her elves to save her brother? She was certainly sad that Zaros was killed by Zamorak, yes, but she didn't even dare involve her elves into this.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that Armadyl mentioned his husband Obi'Sooth died during Zamorak's blast on Forinthry. Yet during the maze, we don't see Armadyl's anger of Zamorak stemming just because Obi died. He was angry because Zamorak killed ALL of the a aviansies that were involved in the war. He didn't single out one aviansie because they were his lover but everyone.

Armadyl also mentioned he has witnessed many deaths of his loved ones. The death of his parents, children, husbands, etc.. While they all saddened him deeply, he sucks it up like a man, saying "It is easy to feel this loss as the curse of immortality, but I prefer to remember that I got to be with him his whole lifetime. I have decades of memories, good and bad, that will always be with me. I am blessed by this, not cursed."

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12-Feb-2017 00:50:49 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2017 01:12:34 by Swolllliosis

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Saradominists should be weary