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The Empty Throne

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Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Mod Jack said :
So as we finally revealed at Runefest, the story of the betrayal is actually going to go in game. Ollie has taken some inspiration from Empty Throne but as I've always said, it's not canon.

Did you spit in Osborne's coffee or something? Totally inexplicable how you're not involved in this.

We need a player power poll or something to get Mod Jack back to work on lore content.
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Sep-2016 00:13:23

Mod Jack

Mod Jack

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Eren Lapucet said :
Jack, couldn't you at least have ended it with an alternative nonsense ending? It feels so unsatisfying having it just end abruptly in the middle...


That's a great idea!

20-Sep-2016 10:02:45

Mod Jack

Mod Jack

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Raleirosen said :
Mod Jack said :
So as we finally revealed at Runefest, the story of the betrayal is actually going to go in game. Ollie has taken some inspiration from Empty Throne but as I've always said, it's not canon.

Did you spit in Osborne's coffee or something? Totally inexplicable how you're not involved in this.

We need a player power poll or something to get Mod Jack back to work on lore content.


It's not like that at all. The Watch are a development team building an update. I'm a designer, busy working on mining & smithing and expansions. It's not a choice between Ollie doing it and me doing it, it's a choice between Ollie doing it, a different team doing it, or it not going into game at all. Personally I'm glad to see it going into game.

20-Sep-2016 10:19:24

Rondstat

Rondstat

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I understand that, the way development teams work, there's never a binary. One dev working on something doesn't mean they take the opportunity from another dev. Scheduling, project allocation, etc probably happens far above the level of any individual developer.

Still, I think getting Ollie for Jack stings the deeply invested lorehounds more than any other substitution. And it's not like we have any right to entitlement - we should be (and generally are!) happy to be getting the story in the first place. But the emotions persist. It's like seeing a Scorcese trailer and arriving to the theater to find the director is actually Uwe Boll.

In a time when many of our lore reveals have been overwhelming, expansive, and have ultimately cheapened their subject matter by divesting them of any mystery (Hero's Welcome, Halloween 2015), Mod Jack managed to give us one of the largest, most comprehensive lore drops in game - and only leave us wanting more.

Mahjarrat Memories was masterful for painting a full, multi-faceted picture of the 2nd Age that shed light on so much that we were greedy to see, while casting shadows deeper and richer than we'd even imagined. No longer were the Mahjarrat a monolith of bland power. By showing the world through their eyes, down to its minutiae (<3Mizzarch), Jack showed us a dozen different perspectives on the lust for power, the doom of rejuvenation, the competition for survival, and the layers of arrogance, hubris, and insecurity that define this race - almost entirely in the voices and emphases through which they viewed history.

No other developer currently at Jagex - not Rowley, not Raven, certainly not Ollie - have demonstrated this level of understanding of the Mahjarrat psyche. No one else has managed to put them center stage without cheapening them. So, it feels like a real shame that the most Mahjarrat-centric story to date won't have this touch.

20-Sep-2016 10:47:55

Rondstat

Rondstat

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Now, Ollie is a very talented developer. Broken Home is one of the game's most innovative quests. Dishonour Among Thieves contains one of my favourite puzzles in the game. And he's done great work with Mazcab and in other areas of the game. But he's not a storyteller.

At this point, I can't really blame Ollie for this. Osborne, Connor, Mark et. al should have, at this point, come to recognize his strengths and weaknesses, and ensured he never had to deal with any more story content. But, here we are.

Ollie's approach to storycraft begins and ends with "hey, wouldn't this be cool." His characters undergo no appreciable arcs. His narratives lean heavily on popular modern story tropes. His command of lore is, charitably, lacking. And he can't write dialogue to save his life. I believe he approaches quests like a fan, thinks what characters it would be cool to see, what events it would be cool to see, how neat it would be to have all these people assembled here. But he never follows through on story. WHY are these characters here? WHAT are their motivations? HOW have they come to this place, and how will they respond to each other? A storyteller has to understand that simply giving the audience everything they want makes for flat, non-provocative storytelling. Where a dev like Raven approaches his characters with deep empathy, and allows them to guide their stories, Ollie treats them as cardboard cutouts, only existing to serve whatever trajectory he's already decided.

Without giving characters any room to breathe or grow, and without a storyline that doesn't pivot on cliche, it's hard to feel especially enthused for Fate of the Gods 2. Perhaps Ollie will prove me wrong. I thought he did a swell job on Beneath Cursed Tides. But if DAT and MPD have been any indication of his capabilities with larger storylines, the Fate of the Children of Mah doesn't look good.

20-Sep-2016 11:00:03 - Last edited on 20-Sep-2016 11:02:02 by Rondstat

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Hazeel said :
No. Those filthy animals don't deserve this thread.


How exactly are we 'filthy animals'?

Zulkir said :
Agreed. Oh how they cry when you interrupt their "Events" :')


That's In-Game Roleplaying you are thinking of, not Forum Roleplaying. Forum Roleplaying is different.

But I'm not sure what your issue with In-Game Roleplayers is either, if they are doing it on a Roleplaying world.
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

20-Sep-2016 12:37:38 - Last edited on 20-Sep-2016 12:41:37 by NotFishing

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Mod Jack said :
Eren Lapucet said :
Jack, couldn't you at least have ended it with an alternative nonsense ending? It feels so unsatisfying having it just end abruptly in the middle...


That's a great idea!


I vote the Sueros ending (the one from the BTS bar).

20-Sep-2016 14:04:11

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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Rondstat said :

Ollie's approach to storycraft begins and ends with "hey, wouldn't this be cool." His characters undergo no appreciable arcs. His narratives lean heavily on popular modern story tropes. His command of lore is, charitably, lacking. And he can't write dialogue to save his life. I believe he approaches quests like a fan, thinks what characters it would be cool to see, what events it would be cool to see, how neat it would be to have all these people assembled here. But he never follows through on story. WHY are these characters here? WHAT are their motivations? HOW have they come to this place, and how will they respond to each other? A storyteller has to understand that simply giving the audience everything they want makes for flat, non-provocative storytelling. Where a dev like Raven approaches his characters with deep empathy, and allows them to guide their stories, Ollie treats them as cardboard cutouts, only existing to serve whatever trajectory he's already decided.


So Mod Ollie should finish the Elemental Workshop Series?

20-Sep-2016 14:47:49

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Rondsat

I couldn't disagree with you more. Mod Ollie has done a fantastic job with story content whenever given an interesting premise to work with.

MPD was an amazing set up to the second Gielinorian God Wars, revealing each god's outlook on the idea and shedding light on the way in which many of their followers view them. The Sixth Age could have been amazing had BatB not come along and completely derailed it. Broken Home, I would argue, has the most intriguing backstory to any self-contained quest in the game, with the exception of One Piercing Note. DAT had a few missed opportunities, but all in all, it was a great collaboration of interesting characters, and did a great job shedding light on many controversial issues from Zamorak's perspective. TLW was also based on Ollie's design and, while I did not personally particularly care for the story told in Tales of the God Wars, that was also very well-received, as with all of the other things that I listed.

Continued...
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Sep-2016 15:50:20

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