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Shorty XVI
Sep Member 2003

Shorty XVI

Posts: 256 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Cenerin

20-Jan-2011 11:37:41
I guess the telling tail lies in the fact that the lowest population servers are almost always the PvP and Bounty Hunter worlds. Granted the rules there aren't quite the same as the old open combat Wilderness but it seems odd that the minority of people choose those types of worlds for the past few years, yet the vote was so lopsided in "their" favor.
I happen to like the Grand Exchange as it is, bring back free trade if you want, but leave the GE intact.
I'm not looking forward to dodging pk'rs at the entrance teleport to the Abyss either.
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Responding to your post! Think about why the PVP servers are lower than in days of past... In the old wild, if you weren't in the wild, you couldn't be PK'ed!! The current PVP servers are like it was in the beginning of RS. You could PK people anywhere! Banks are the only safe haven! If you want to do something other than PK'ing, you would go to a non PVP server because who wants to get PK'ed while smithing bars into armor?? In the old wild, there were prefered PK servers (e.g. World 6, 18, 100, etc) Those servers were always full and the wild was crowded with PK'ers... By bringing the old wild back, you can still smith your bars without getting PK'ed and if you want to PK, you don't have to go to a specific server to do so!

20-Jan-2011 14:20:08

Zsxa
Dec Member 2020

Zsxa

Posts: 2,238 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@VoidKnightsc

I understand you think that with the wilderness returning, so will the rwt'ers. However, RWT is still around to this day. I'm sure it's not as fast as opening a trade window, but it is still around. Have you not seen advertisements for it before?
My point is RWT will always be around so will botters. Taking things people love out of the game won't help. The best Jagex can do is try their hardest to monitor it.

20-Jan-2011 14:21:01

Shorty XVI
Sep Member 2003

Shorty XVI

Posts: 256 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Bigbird8 0

20-Jan-2011 05:13:27
I know this is a very late rant but here goes..
Jagex may not be very worried about botters and other things that may happen because of the return of the wilderness, but bring back wilderness and freetrade together? surely Jagex could have fixed something to where drop trades, scamming, or "giving gifts" that give unfair advantages to certain players(mostly those who know ppl that have been playing since before 2005. I'm curious, was this not a concern? Was the communities opinion on this not important? I mean yeah ok cool a lot of players are going to love having the old style pking back but what about the players who are going to have to worry about how they make money? Or the less fortunate players who are going to be victim to prices because the rich in the runescape community will be controling prices? Yeah this is a game but still player dont wanna be practicaly bullied into paying the prices clans or rich players order them to pay. Where is the concern for trading jagex?
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Honestly, prices were lower in the old days and even before the GE you could purchase items at a reasonable price! From what I understand the GE is not going to be removed. Perhaps I misread something, but the GE will still be a great place to buy things! The only difference is the upper and lower limits will be removed! When a new item comes out, it's market price was always based on supply and demand. Thus you can now buy something for the price given and not get 20 mil worth of junk! If you are following prices on GE at present they are rapidly dropping! Except for potions and food. With that said, it obvious people are preparing for PK'ing and if anything free trade will cause items to drop in value.

20-Jan-2011 14:33:27

Phthartic

Phthartic

Posts: 1,730 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Finally someone who's actually willing to consider these sorts of questions!
"...Most of your complaints about the vote seem to center around the first vote..."
That is quite true. But what does the first vote purport to be? Why did they bother to have a first vote? Why not just poll the question do you want this, Yes or No?
The answer is that the first vote pretends to be an initial gate that must be passed in order to move to the second "real" vote. No threshold that must be met was given however; only a vague suggestion that over a million "votes" would probably suffice. Then every effort was made to enable supporters to meet that threshold, only some of which I have mentioned lately, but which have all been covered on this thread earlier.
Then when they get like 60% more than the presumed (not stated) threshold they are justified moving to a second vote. If all the flaws in the first vote had not been there, would we have passed one million votes? I tend to doubt it.
Other posters have shown the second vote couldn't have been manipulated to a great enough degree to win? How can they do that without knowing who voted how many times?
I personally documented (starting on p. 774) many examples of "yes" voters admitting to voting multiple times, and I don't mean twice. 5 and 10 times were not at all uncommon, and nobody who admitted or implied that they were using bots to vote or voting ALL names on the thread in opposition gave numbers, but they obviously would have been well into double digits.
At the same time there were NO opponents admitting to multiple voting; in fact many like me said they wouldn't consider doing so, and in any case were less likely to be able to, since PKers tend to have more accounts than others. (The guy "proving" the vote couldn't have been cheated enough to matter no doubt didn't assume these facts.)
[Dang; I wanted to keep this down to one post...]

20-Jan-2011 16:54:26

Phthartic

Phthartic

Posts: 1,730 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Couple this with the fact that supporters (mostly I refer to PKers, but botters also) are pretty fanatical about the subject and, let's face it, are the type of people who aren't very picky about HOW they get what they want, and you have a recipe for HUGE numbers of cheat votes on the supporter side, and very few on the opponents side.
And the first vote conveniently prepares cheaters to do the one form of cheating allowed on the second vote by specifically encouraging them to have multiple brand new accounts ready to go when the second vote comes around.
Also many people were posting here long after the first vote was closed saying things that showed they were unaware that the voting methodology had changed, so how many opponents were still (stupidly) "boycotting" the vote as they had been trained to do by the first vote?
Sorry, all this can't be accidental. As I have said, if a slight majority want it fine; I lose. But I strongly object to being scammed no matter the final outcome.
The "problem" with the "real" vote WAS in large part the FIRST VOTE.
To your other points, the "HQ" site has always felt more "PK-ish" to me than the "tip" site; this may explain their results, but in any case they didn't seem as lopsided as Jagex's polls did they?
Why would they do something most players didn't want? This is easily explained, and pretty obvious, TBH: They simply correctly calculated they would gain more customers than they would lose by doing it. QED. The "votes" were intended to pacify the expected backlash and reduce complaints. Now if they start getting endlessly pestered by the other side, they can just say "It's what our customers wanted;" a lesson they learned from the updates removing old wildy and Free trade. They didn't solicit input on those updates and paid for it dearly.

20-Jan-2011 16:54:39 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2011 17:28:47 by Phthartic

Mystic Monad
May Member 2005

Mystic Monad

Posts: 12,305 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Okay, a few more questions:
If the "HQ" site is "PK-ish," how do you explain the fact that its poll shows more players in favor of the return of free trade than the return of the old wildy?
And how do you explain the fact that its poll shows an even smaller minority (6%, vs 7% in the RS referendum) opposing the return of free trade and the old wildy, even though people can't vote with multiple accounts on that site? Is there a massive conspiracy by PKers and dastardly free-trade proponents to vote from multiple IP addresses in a fansite poll?
Or do you think that poll is rigged, too?
If so, why would a "PK-ish" site rig its poll to show more people in favor of free trade than the old wildy?

Is there *any* credible evidence that there is not a majority of players in favor of the return of free trade and the old wildy? Any at all?

20-Jan-2011 19:24:28 - Last edited on 20-Jan-2011 19:43:03 by Mystic Monad

Phthartic

Phthartic

Posts: 1,730 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I think I've answered that numerous times in more or less direct terms, but specifically: I'd say that in my mind, the likelihood that there are at least 50% of players plus one (not ACCOUNTS mind you; but PLAYERS) in favor of the proposal is in the neighborhood of 60%. So probably there is a majority, but by no means am I certain of that, nor does it matter much to me.
It is going to happen. It was going to happen before the votes happened.
I believe I have amply demonstrated the ease by which that "91%" majority could drop to 50% if multiple votes and other biases were removed, but my objection is pricipally to the method, not the results.
And if I can anticipate you, your next point is if I admit there's a majority for it then what's the problem?
Apart from what I have already said allow me to illustrate with a personal example.
In school when a teacher gave us a test, then later told me I got "X%" wrong but that the tests weren't going to be returned to us (presumably due to a fear that that would enable others to cheat) I squawked vehemently. If you tell me I got an answer wrong you'd better be prepared to back it up. I don't care if you're a teacher or not, you're just as likely to be wrong as I am until I see proof.
I'm well aware I'll never see proof of their provably bogus "91%" majority, but I'm not going to back down from obvious facts either.
In a few months when all the complaints about the exact problems inherent in reverting that we opponents predicted start coming in, I'll be right there to rub the supporters noses in it. Likewise if Jagex ever holds polls on related topics or polls on "unreversion" I'll be right there to rub THEIR noses in it.

20-Jan-2011 19:51:33

Phthartic

Phthartic

Posts: 1,730 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
What I didn't really have the space to properly explain is that a fansite poll is similar to me asking people mining a star or you asking people in Edgeville bank what they thought. It may be biased in some direction for reasons none of us can explain or prove.
The "best evidence" in this case is from a properly designed poll on the Runescape site. Since they chose not to do that they get to live with the consequences, including utterly loony people like me that seem to think since a lot of people admitted cheating that that somehow means a lot of people cheated.

20-Jan-2011 19:58:47

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