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Sand Traven

Sand Traven

Posts: 4,520 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jehan Senju said :
Everyone ADD me!!!!!

Aren't we eager? I wouldn't suggest you ask everyone to add you; you don't know where some of us have been. One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

17-Nov-2014 12:33:00

Sand Traven

Sand Traven

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Speaking of going places, this being a chat thread I'd like to raise a long-standing issue I have with the way debates/disagreements/arguments are treated on these forums.

Specifically, my issue is with the fact that people seem to want to usher any kind of debate in-game, as though its mere presence is an affront to these forums. This, I think, is dumb.

While I can see where these people - those who wish for arguments to be taken in-game and off the forums - are coming from, I think they fail to understand the logistics of such a thing. For one, any points raised, conclusions made or even understandings reached are quickly gone into the ether. It is difficult and often misleading to try and chase the arguments and counter-arguments that lead to a decision being reached if one was unable to make it in game while that discussion was taking place. Second-hand retellings of a conversation and later reports of it are often misleading and incomplete, which is no help whatsoever to someone trying to understand this community and follow its ever-changing nature.

There's also the more obvious issue of saturation; in a difficult matter which affects the community, everyone has their own points to make, rightly or wrongly. In an in-game discussion, more valid points and statements are easily lost among the throng of people having their say. In more private discussions a resolution can be reached by the two disagreeing parties easily enough, providing the representatives of each can speak for their clanmates. But as I say, on issues affecting the whole community or a large number of people, everyone deserves a say; and there are no realistic ways for such discussions to be had in-game between hundreds of people that are not counter-productive, what with the one-line limit and the rapidly ascending chatbox.

A discussion had on the forums, no matter how out of hand it gets or how badly it is handled, remains where it is. While some may argue this would reflect badly -- One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

17-Nov-2014 15:00:02

Sand Traven

Sand Traven

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-- on the community, I do not believe this is as much of an issue as people like to think. No one comes here with an illusion of peace, harmony and happiness. This is an online community, and like any online community, it comes with its problems. What can mark us out as special is our way of dealing with things; even the worst argument in this community can have positive results or an endearing image; whether it's through the ultimate resolution, the cool-headed and calm handling of the moderators or communities bigwigs, or the mere fact that even the little guy can be seen to be having his say, we often come up smelling of roses even when we're at our most vitriolic. There's a reason we're still around, after all. So worrying about how new role-players see us is not a real issue to be worried about. A discussion that is had on the forums can be referred back to by those who missed it or come new to the community later. They will be able to see why we do the strange things we do, or at least how we reached those decisions in the first place. Everything is there in black and white. As I say, all those points and counter-arguments will remain where they are; at least until Chewie, the page 51 monster, gets them.

I'd like to conclude with what I believe is the most important issue: that this forum was created for, among other things, discussion. That does not exclude debate or argument; it was intended for discussion of all kinds, whether one likes it or not. It was only by the grace of the moderators that we were allowed to have clan threads on this forum at all; it was intended for events and discussion first and foremost. So this is not a clan forum where discussion occasionally happens; it is a discussion forum where clan threads are tolerated.

In essence what I am asking for is tolerance of dispute. Dispute is how we have grown over these years, and it is in the fires of debate that we reach the consensus that works for the most people at once. One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

17-Nov-2014 15:00:10 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2014 15:10:18 by Sand Traven

Sand Traven

Sand Traven

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-- I am not asking anyone to allow their threads to be derailed in the name of flaming and butthurt. Not at all; if anything, that would be a way to lose our right to host clan threads here at all. I believe people should be willing to host arguments that relate to their role-play on their own thread, and that it is only a desire to hide the truth that would lead anyone to ask it take place elsewhere. But that is only my belief, and is likely not shared by all. If someone truly wishes it to not take place on their thread, then I think they should not try to force it in-game, but should instead encourage it to take place elsewhere on the forums, perhaps on a chat thread such as this one or in a new thread created just for the purpose of resolving that disagreement.

By doing so we remain candid as a community; we bare ourselves to newcomers and maintain the sort of transparency that lets other members of this community know we can be trusted and have nothing to hide. This, I think, will improve things greatly.

Thank you for reading. One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

17-Nov-2014 15:10:27 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2014 15:17:19 by Sand Traven

Sand Traven

Sand Traven

Posts: 4,520 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Woops! Reserved one more than I needed. Sorry! One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

17-Nov-2014 15:16:38 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2014 15:17:08 by Sand Traven

Role-Player
Nov Member 2023

Role-Player

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Thank you, Sand, I totally agree.

Forcing it in game for the sake of it is like moving a bear behind a closed door and then pretending it's not there.
„¬°´˜“
And my sax.
“˜`°¬„

17-Nov-2014 22:57:18 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2014 22:58:57 by Role-Player

Benthomasnac

Benthomasnac

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What they should do is create a sticky forum for discussing arguments, and maybe have a mod moniter the thread for breacks in rules except for the non forum arguements , but other then that, let the people work it out. However, i think he argument should last a month at most so the whole theard isnt consumed by just one.

How the format would work..

Example

Name of the Debate"
(insert subject)


Why:

Who brought it up:

Which two sides are debating and why:

Prefered ending of conflict for each side:
“I will not say, do not weep, for not all tears are an evil.

18-Nov-2014 21:16:38

Sand Traven

Sand Traven

Posts: 4,520 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Benthomasnac said :
What they should do is create a sticky forum for discussing arguments, and maybe have a mod moniter the thread for breacks in rules except for the non forum arguements , but other then that, let the people work it out. However, i think he argument should last a month at most so the whole theard isnt consumed by just one.

How the format would work..

Example

Name of the Debate"
(insert subject)


Why:

Who brought it up:

Which two sides are debating and why:

Prefered ending of conflict for each side:

That was tried a few years ago during Estar's time, but didn't take off. If you try to regiment and regulate the kind of creative ideas and solutions that come about in a heated debate with a designated thread for them all to take place on, you lose a lot of the spontaneity and passion. While encouraging things to cool down a bit can be helpful, there are situations where people should be angry and indignant. The thread, which ran with basically the exact same format you gave, caused these debates to lose that edge. One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's cash buys another's pleasure.
So I'll rob from the cradle, and I'll rob from the grave; it's just human traffic, and I'm just a slave.

18-Nov-2014 21:56:48

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