RuneScape Forum Archive | Can we talk about P.A.G?

GhostlyBard

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For those who haven’t seen it yet PAG (Player Advocacy Groups) is a new initiative set up by Jagex wherein teams of select players offer feedback and work with Jmods to help shape game content.

Link to the news post.

While this can be construed as a positive thing and a step in the right direction, I do have my doubts and can’t help being skeptical about the whole thing.

I’ve been mulling it over and keep coming back to four main concerns:-

1. Why are the developers (some of whom have played the game for years) not already aware of the issues that players would like fixing.

2. The selection process. Nothing against the RsGuy and after briefly glancing their Twitter they seem like a decent person. But the way it’s been announced makes it seem like they were selected either because (a.) They’re friends with Jmods -or- (b.) they’re a popular twitch streamer.

3. Players don’t always know what’s best for a game, ‘power to the players’ & ‘Runelabs’ is proof of that.

4. Although nothing concrete has been mentioned as a project the things mentioned in the first PAG charter as examples don’t exactly scream pressing issue that would have a significant impact.

Link to PAG charter.

So yeah... sorry to be so negative so early on, and I do believe in giving it a chance. I’m just not entirely sold on how beneficial this will be.

But let me hear your thoughts are you excited for it? Do you think it’s a turning point in Runescapes game development. Check out Thieves guild layout redesign. Happy ‘scaping

03-Apr-2020 11:29:52

Jan

2011

Roddy Piper

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I'm sure their choice is a wonderful person, but just like in government, anyone who would be good at the job wouldn't do it anyways. This game made a ton of progress when the devs were gathering strong feedback from players that went unnoticed. A good idea doesn't need a ton of popular support to be popular. It needs to be understood and acted upon. The more people you add to the mix the less likely that is to happen.

05-Apr-2020 17:07:43

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I do agree with the sentiment of "why do this when we already know what the problems are".

I imagine part of it boils down to what exactly qualifies as a "problem".
For example: you have players who talk about how EoC ruined the game, or at least pking. They've been pushing for the removal of EoC.
After 8 years …….
Removing it for example might have been doable back in 2012 or 2013 when there wasn't a huge amount of dev. But now? It's not so easy.

Another example: Bank rework.
Some players simply associated "bank placeholders" and "more bank space" AS the sum of a "bank rework".
Never mind things like improvements to Diango storing stuff, the addition of the quest Caravan holding quest items, or linking the bank to Diango and your PoH storage. Even improvements to the UI.

I think another part of it is that the devs might be learning to be a little more realistic. The various updates that made the Bank Rework was a massive undertaking for something that might not always be obvious, but was still a moderate to huge QoL improvement.
Then you have updates like the replayability of Sliske's Endgame which was another massive project, but it ended up barely being used.

05-Apr-2020 18:35:16

Deltaslug

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As a player, we have our complaints about something that is a "problem". We just don't know how much work can really go into fixing it. Others just don't care.
But as a dev, you might have to spend a few days looking at it before you can say that it is a quick thing to do … or if it is something that would take an entire dev team 3-9 months to work on just to placate a small group. *cough* *pvp content* *cough*

05-Apr-2020 18:37:32

Jamzi

Posts: 2,354 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The problem with the game is that the developers listen to the wrong people. They seem to lavish around people on Twitter/Reddit...........which don't really have the brightest audience.

Having these groups of people recruited from these same places won't change a thing.

The very sentence......pick someone you trust..... I don't trust anybody on RS... O_o

ROFL what a nonsense this whole P.A.G thing.

05-Apr-2020 22:47:58

A Mighty

Posts: 2,337 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Agreed. This is bound to be another disaster like Runelabs and PttP.

To those cursed by war and pest, Come into the light of Armadyl and rest. This is the law of Armadyl.

06-Apr-2020 04:05:02

Mar

2008

Pachuli714

Posts: 4,549 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

GhostlyBard said :
1. Why are the developers (some of whom have played the game for years) not already aware of the issues that players would like fixing.

The answer to this is painfully obvious. Devs tend to play at the game instead of actually play it as the average player is intended to do. They use all of those shortcuts and cheats to play-test areas and content and skip over much of drudge that the rest of us are required to do and then fall prey to the bugs and glitches therein which they missed because they skipped through the drudge.

And if they'd like to prove me wrong, I'd suggest they refrain from demonstrating this in each and every damn video stream they do. I get it they want to show off content or demonstrate how something works for viewers but I'd much rather see them do so on their own accounts rather than open up the dev console and cheat their way into it in order to artificially show something. It does not inspire any confidence that they've actually tested the content.

06-Apr-2020 15:29:15

Jun

2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

GhostlyBard said :

Why are the developers (some of whom have played the game for years) not already aware of the issues that players would like fixing.

PAG is not about fixing issues. They are setting up a goal for something that benefits the community as a whole, and they are looking for somebody with good knowledge of the game and good communication skills and such to champion such an initiative.

06-Apr-2020 20:29:34

GhostlyBard

Posts: 4,332 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Thanks for the replies I agree with the majority of what’s been posted.

Will say though that PAG could be about fixing issues (if it isn’t already) as this would in turn benefit the community as a whole.

To that end I’d like to recommend the following issue be considered for a PAG project:-

Text for bad eyes. Credit to Tiamat Rider, the threads creator.
At time of writing this idea has 23 pages of support from people all sharing the same issue of being unable to see the games dialogue ( + a single no support).
Such an update would be hugely beneficial to a lot of RS players, and would reflect positively on the game in general.

Understandably this wouldn’t be a ninja fix so I don’t think it’d be suitable for the current PAG. But hopefully it could be undertaken at some point in the near future. Check out Thieves guild layout redesign. Happy ‘scaping

07-Apr-2020 13:12:42 - Last edited on 07-Apr-2020 13:14:44 by GhostlyBard

Aslon Dak

Posts: 10,543 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

There is potential for benefits to the game, I suppose, but honestly I have low expectations for the PAGs. I like the basic idea, but we will have to see how the concept is actually put into practice. Several good points have been brought up in this thread. I agree with others who have doubts these PAGs will actually do any good. Again, time will tell. It always does.

If Jagex truly wants to know how they can improve the game for the majority of players, they should step outside the echo chamber and read what actual players are saying about what they like and do not like. No, not everything is perfect and the best it's ever been. Anyone who is honest will admit that. Not everything in the game is utter crap either. Anyone who thought that has already left the game, if they really believed that.

Of course, you can't please everyone, no matter what you do. If you just try to make the best game you can - one that many types of players can enjoy - then you can call that a success. Aslon Dak: Still 'Scaping after 19 years!
You can buy XP. You can't buy experience.
"...From The 'Scape" is very nearly here.

09-Apr-2020 09:56:51

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Can we talk about P.A.G?