RuneScape Forum Archive | Why I dislike: Avatar Rework

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Before I go into this discussion, I want to state clearly that I very much appreciate Clans seeing some development time, as well as the effort that has gone into this rework.

However, for the reasons listed below I strongly dislike the suggested changes to Clan Avatars , and I felt I needed to create my own thread on the topic to express my concerns in detail.

I will quote each problem Jagex have identified, and reply with my input on their approach to solving it.

I will continuously Edit this thread to optimise and rephrase the text, as I appreciate that it is time-consuming to read and some points may not be expressed as well as they could be.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:18:35 - Last edited on 19-Jan-2017 20:21:17 by Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
- Clan Avatars are a clunky pain to summon, track, recall and administrate for clan members. Codewise they're an unpleasant exception [...]

I feel that a good portion of this first problem is overstated.

Clan Avatars are no more difficult to Summon, relatively, than most other Familiars in the game. The problem is that the Pet interface has introduced new overpowered Pets such as the Legendary pets which require no effort to summon in return for massive bonuses.

If you compare the Clan Avatar to familiars like a Pack Yak then it's summoning process is not excessive if you consider the massive, lengthy boost it gives you.

With the Clan noticeboard window you can find out which Clanmate has an Avatar and what world they are on - tracking them is no longer an issue. If you need to know specifically where an Avatar is just ask the Avatar's Warden; if a Clan cannot achieve this basic level of communication then I argue that the problem is with the Clan, and not the tracking system.

How often do you really need to recall an Avatar to the citadel? With a good set of Clan rules (e.g. don't log out with Avatars) and good communication you should never really need to recall Avatars anyway. Obviously having that functionality is necessary, but it is hardly difficult to recall an Avatar and therefore I believe it is fine as it is. If you want to push excessive convenience, then add a button on the Noticeboard window to recall a Clan Avatar.

Based on the arguments I have raised above I believe this is not a legitimate problem, and therefore doesn't need "fixing" with a full rework to how Avatars work.

Overall, I agree that allowing Clanmates to summon the Avatar from the Citadel via the Pet interface is an excellent idea -- however I do not agree with giving every Clanmate their own personal Avatar, which comes with issues I will address later.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:18:40 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2017 16:39:24 by Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
- A tiny percentage of players interact with anything but the 3% XP buff. Of the remainder, the majority seems to be clan wardens gaining a 6% XP buff.

The Clan Warden receives a greater buff because they are sacrificing their familiar. Other Clanmates are not sacrificing their familiars, and therefore they should receive a lesser buff. I see this as fair, but I agree that the specific numbers may need adjusting.

Clanmates should receive a greater buff if they are close to the Avatar to encourage clanmates to play nearby one-another on the same world, which creates a sense of community. If you allow all Clanmates to have their own personal Avatar, then this community aspect of Avatars is undermined. Whilst this may not be commonplace in your gathered data, you should make it commonplace; not reduce it further.

Further to this, giving everyone in a Clan a constant, uncontested, and uncoordinated 3% XP boost for free is unfair. A free XP boost for all Clanmates without limitation is unfair to those who don't partake in Clans.

The current system has limitations (there's only three Avatars at most) and therefore it is less of an issue - but I remember when Avatars were introduced and there was uproar at the idea of Clans receiving XP-boosting tools.

Players have a biased, vested-interest in the outcome; You are essentially offering them a free unlimited 3% XP boost, so of course they support this. They are not seeing how this is detrimental to the community aspect of Clan Avatars, or how it is unfair to those not in Clans.

Overall, I do not agree with ruining the diversity of Clan Avatars by deleting six of their seven buffs. I do not agree with giving every Clanmate their own personal unlimited/free Clan avatar (and 3% XP boost) because it is unfair to those not in a Clan. Furthermore, giving each Clanmate a personal Avatar encourages solo play, when Clans should be encouraging group play.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:18:40 - Last edited on 25-Jan-2017 10:17:22 by Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
- The gathering-in-citadel buff is notionally better regarded than its equally unused peers but its usefulness is poor next to the XP buff.

This is the first mention of any buff that isn't the XP-related buff. Why is there no mention of the other Avatar buffs? You surely aren't deleting them?

We have continuously nagged for the other Avatar buffs to be improved, but they have never really been addressed, even though they're the biggest issue with Avatars.

I feel like you are perceiving Avatars as yet another monotonous XP buff instead of celebrating their diverse range of bonuses. The problem with the game is the fixation on XP - don't let Avatars succumb to this as well.

Please give the other buffs some attention rather than ignoring/deleting them. Avatars should be a diverse tool for Clans of all discipline to customise for their needs; not just an XP-boosting tool.

The Skill Plot buff on the Avatar can be improved: increase the gathering rate bonus to 100% instead of 10% it will be considerably more useful. This allows players who don't care about XP to half their gainz from the Citadel, but cap much faster - it's a good tradeoff.

Overall, I do not agree with ruining the diversity of Clan Avatars by deleting all of their buffs aside from the XP buffs. Clan Avatars are supposed to be diverse, so that they can be customized uniquely to appeal to the diverse and unique range of Clans.

Original message details are unavailable.
- there's currently no incentive to improve the habitat to its full potential.

There are only three Avatar Habitats: Basic, Medium, Grand. Therefore, it's full potential is the Grand habitat.

You get one Avatar for a Basic Habitat, two for a Medium Habitat, three for a Grand Habitat.

Overall, there is plenty of incentive to improve the Habitat to its full potential (Grand Habitat). You get an extra Avatar, which is a huge bonus.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:18:40 - Last edited on 25-Jan-2017 10:18:53 by Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Original message details are unavailable.
- There's currently no benefit, outside citadel plot XP, to maintaining fealty with your clan.

The Avatars may be housed in the Citadel, but content-wise they run on their own gameplay system. Fealty does not have to be directly linked to Clan Avatars.

The problem with Clan Citadels, and a large amount of your other content in general, is that you use XP as the primary reward. As soon as better XP rates become available, the content becomes outdated.

Overall, I believe that you can improve the rewards/benefits of Clan Citadel Fealty/Skilling Plots without them necessarily having to reflect on the Avatar, which is a self-contained piece of content in itself. My suggestion is to create unique rewards for Citadel Skilling, which I will address with my own content example in the next point.

Original message details are unavailable.
- Clan Orts are less than ideal.

The reason Orts are "unpleasant" is because they were implemented as nothing more than a bottleneck. They are not difficult to obtain nor valuable, and therefore obtaining them becomes monotonous.

Instead of removing Anagogic Orts, which would be a huge waste of them as a currency, why not add them as a reward for using the Skill Plots in the Citadel? For example, you could award one Anagogic Ort per resource gathered in the Citadel. Players would recieve more Orts if their fealty was greater.

Then, add an NPC in the Citadel which will swap your Anagogic Orts for new consumable reward items, such as consumable/portable Avatar buffs which stack with existing Buffs. people would want these if they were good enough.

Overall, by creating a new consumable, unique item reward that players can purchase using Anagogic Orts, earned whilst Skilling in the Citadel, you will restore the value in the benefits of the Clan Citadel and it will not be killed off by future content simply offering better XP rates.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:33:07 - Last edited on 25-Jan-2017 18:07:31 by Subzero

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Closing Words
Please reconsider the changes you have suggested for Clan Avatars for the reasons I have listed above. Whilst I cannot speak for all Clans, I believe your suggested changes address the actual problems in the wrong way and could be much-improved or revised.

I feel that the spirit of the clan community is more important than the data which suggests that Clans are not acting as a community. You should seek to improve the community, not divide it further.

I would rather see you delay the Avatar rework and address our concerns, whilst perfecting your code implementation. Pushing these new Clan Avatars will be another nail in the coffin for community and fair play in the game, as well as further limiting the diversity of Clans.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

19-Jan-2017 19:35:58 - Last edited on 25-Jan-2017 10:22:19 by Subzero

Mar

2018

Scret

Posts: 25,434 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Orts are just bad content in general, they never made any sense from a gaming or aesthetic point of view, just the logic that "youre in a clan so random bits of crap pop up" was lazy game design as is the case with similar types of items while skilling which is just an excuse not to think about what RWT or holiday gimic you wanna promote. I wont miss them.

`*•.¸(*•.¸(`*•.¸+¸.•*´)¸.•*)¸.•*´
+«´¨`•°

SKILL SCHOOL

•´¨`»+
. .•*(¸.•*´(¸.•*´+`*•.¸)`*•.¸)*•.

20-Jan-2017 01:26:11

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Scret said :
Orts are just bad content in general, they never made any sense from a gaming or aesthetic point of view, just the logic that "youre in a clan so random bits of crap pop up" was lazy game design as is the case with similar types of items while skilling which is just an excuse not to think about what RWT or holiday gimic you wanna promote. I wont miss them.

They were bad content because they were implemented poorly, which is why I have suggested a way to implement them well.

If Jagex made Anagogic Orts a random drop whilst using the Citadel Skill Plots, which could be traded to a Citadel NPC in return for consumable, stackable, portable Avatar buffs -- then that alone would be enough to make players more interested in the Citadel.

The problem with the Citadel is that it only hands out XP rewards, and XP is a bad reward because it quickly becomes outdated.

But Anagogic Orts are only a tiny part of this thread's feedback, which addresses the whole of Mod Moltare's thread and why it's rework is poorly/carelessly designed in my opinion.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

20-Jan-2017 08:50:08

Aug

2009

Beccah

Posts: 3,334 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I agree with many of your points: I also believe avatars are unique and a permanent buff will make it 'yet another' way of getting more xp, removing the point of training close together entirely. I agree they're not a hassle to summon, and i also agree that there is great incentive for working towards a grand habitat (in fact, it is the main goal for my clan as we speak). So from a clan standpoint, i agree with you and see this update as a bad change.

However, what i am very happy to see is the ability to have a different familiar out, as well as receiving the buff. In my clan admins use the avatar in the citadel mainly (the skill plot bonus.. rip that bonus if this continues), however barely anyone takes an ava to our homeworld. As a deputy I feel the responsibility to take out the avatar for everyone who does not have the rank requirement for it, so I take one out whenever I log in, even though I'm going to slay and would rather have my legendary pet out. So from a personal standpoint i am happy that i'll be able to summon my legendary pet again without feeling guilty while getting the buff myself too. I guess this is also fixable by making avatars overrideable though.

Overall id say i have to agree with you, id prefer the system as it is right now for the gathering purpose of it, however for me personally it's not the end of the world if it changes as proposed. Mixed feelings. Aargh. Dedicated Feline Enthusiast
Proud owner of Clowder Community clan - open to all friendly P2P individuals!

20-Jan-2017 11:35:05

Subzero

Posts: 23,266 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Beccah said :
However, what i am very happy to see is the ability to have a different familiar out, as well as receiving the buff.

Thanks for your input.

I appreciate this point wholeheartedly from a convenience perspective.

From a gameplay design perspective, you are continuously required to make trade-offs when playing the game. For the same reason you can't have a Steel titan and a Pack Yak summoned at the same time, I don't think you should be able to have an Avatar and any other summoned at the same time.

In my eyes, Avatars were created to encourage teamwork, sharing, and communication.

The Avatar Warden sacrifices their ability to summon a familiar, and instead summons the Avatar - which gives the Warden a powerful boost, and gives clanmates on the same world a boost as well; which in return makes up for the Warden's loss of a familiar. This drives an aspect of sharing and teamwork in clans.

By giving every Clanmate their own personal Avatar and allowing them to have the Avatar alongside their regular familiar, all of the teamwork, communication, and sharing is no longer required.

Whilst Jagex can call upon their "analytical data" (wherein they assert that this rarely happened), I accuse their data of being self-defeating. The reason this doesn't happen as regularly as Jagex wanted was because Jagex did a poor job at designing the buffs in the first place; if they designed them better (by reworking the rubbish buffs instead of deleting them) then this would be achieved on a greater scale.

Subzero

Incursione 2100+/130+ Clan, Avatar access for all.

20-Jan-2017 11:52:55

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Why I dislike: Avatar Rework