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Azigarath

Azigarath

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So yeah, just keep things active and remember that, especially when men are armoured, there much more wrestling going on. In the CAS Hanwei - 2010 Blade show, John makes a nice tripping maneuver near the end of the video, simply putting one foot behind the guy’s and pushing his face over, and this is easy to do. When there are multiple enemies, this is when things get a little trickier, as you have to then imagine “what if they all jump in at the same time?” if such does occur, I would imagine myself recklessly making a wide swing to cover as much area I could, after all even if a few guys jump in they would still be careful not to waltz into a swung sword, everyone flinches after all.

So, to avoid clichés, just try to make it so that the character don’t take turns attacking, and mention bodily reactions like sweating, bleeding, nose-blowing, fear, uneasiness, nausea, and trauma. Only a battle-hardened knight would be able to take a life without thinking, so I feel that younger characters starting their adventure should have more emotion (such as your descriptions when he’s going through the forest) but sorting it into the violent side. Maybe show how he changes during a battle, or improvises an action.

As for the clumsy swing, as John Clements shows, the moment a sword is parried, it’s probably the last move the guy makes. :P

“Also, keep in mind that I'd like to describe this in a way such that people who know nothing about swordfighting...”

Yes, this is tough, but I think I know how to use simple descriptions to show how a weapon is used. For example:
“The bandit lifted his sword and brought it down with wrath, intent on slicing Hero’s forehead apart, but all Hero had to do was swipe his own blade sideways, so that it smashed into the side of the bandit’s sword and continued into his neck.”

28-Jan-2013 03:11:08 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2013 03:11:48 by Azigarath

Azigarath

Azigarath

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Or maybe,

“Another bandit ran forth from the flank, sticking his arm out to stab Hero, Hero noticing it on the last second, and so Hero pointed his blade at the bandit, causing the bandit to stop his charge; eager to kill, the bandit crudely swung his sword at Hero’s sword, but Hero simply lowered his sword so that the bandit’s missed it and then Hero delivered his own lunge into the bandit’* exposed body.”

I seem to be blabbing a ton, to the best I can say is just describe what you see but perhaps just focus on the movement of the weapons first and then the body next. My last piece of advice is to think about movies and games, think about how they fight, and maybe just try not to repeat what is shown. Of course, mixing martial arts, or creating your own, is a good means of doing things too. I see no reason why a swordsman could also be a boxer/kick boxer or a jujutsu-like ***hter, so just mix things up and see if you can create and not recreate perhaps. Like, a horned/spiked helmet would make a pretty brutal head-butt attack!

I hope this helps.

28-Jan-2013 03:11:18

Chuk

Chuk

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So, with the whole wrestling thing while in armor, how did they end up winning? I mean, it seems like they would either be stuck wrestling until one of them is completely exhausted, and then he just gets executed by the guy who's only almost completely exhausted, or one of the combatants gets stabbed in the back by someone else entirely. None of the videos I watched showed what happened after the wrestling started.

In addition, how easy is it to pierce full plate armor? As I understand it, a thrust with the tip of a sword is better than a slice type of cut for getting through the armor, but it doesn't seem like either would be particularly successful. To actually reach the enemy's flesh, it seems like you'd have to hit at weak points in the armor, because the armor itself would block your blow just fine.

Then, something that bothered me about these videos is that they are demonstrations, and in watching them I'd never think one was trying to kill the other. They're both working towards the same goal; demonstrating the movement so that you can see it, when in combat, your enemy wouldn't be so cooperative. I guess it seems like a lot of those were staged just as much as movies, just in a completely different way. I mean, in soccer (something I'm much more familiar with) there's a world of difference between kicking the ball the right way and the wrong way, and then another level of difference between kicking the ball right in a practice situation or demonstration, versus actually being on the field in the 65t* minute of a game. My intuition says that combat would be the same. It's one thing to see it work perfectly in a demonstration, another on the actual field of battle.

03-Feb-2013 09:31:56 - Last edited on 03-Feb-2013 09:46:24 by Chuk

Azigarath

Azigarath

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Indeed, demonstration is entirely different from actual killing in the field, so the videos provide a decent example of things but not much else, so your intuition is correct, and the enemy would never allow you to do something to him unless he did*’t see it coming or was distracted, and I doubt a lighter knight could overwhelm a much larger, heavier one.

The dagger was often the killing tool, rather than the sword. When an armored foe was exhausted or fallen by tripping or pushing or what have you, the victor would sit or kneel atop the fallen and push a dagger through the eye sights of a helm, or between the gaps of armour. The fallen knight could yield, too. I suppose in such a situation, I would be rolling around as strongly as I could and even clubbing with the hands, or grabbing my foe’s dagger. So yeah, stamina and strength are important, so it’s whoever is fresher/stronger that will probably win the wrestle and then use of dagger.

Every now and then, knights captured other knights to ransom them, and, sometimes, plated knights could not be killed in battle. I would imagine that when exhausted, a knight would be unable to retreat, especially on foot, and thus is captured after giving up. The lower classes, unfortunately, were simply cut down. After the Battle of Agincourt, Henry V ordered his knights to execute all captured French knights, but the knights did not obey, so instead the peasantry killed the captured French knights upon order.

Yes, thrusts work better that cuts and slashes to get through armour, though one-handed swords aren’t enough to poke through armour. Surprisingly, the rondel dagger could in theory pierce plate armour so long as the “blade” was just an elongated pyramidal “blade” without edges, and held with the tip facing down from the hand.

04-Feb-2013 01:09:30 - Last edited on 04-Feb-2013 01:14:20 by Azigarath

Azigarath

Azigarath

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Two-handed swords, poleaxes, warhammers, maces, halberds, and wedged axes (but battleaxes with flat blades are not so good against plate armour) are all capable of damaging a plated opponent, so that it deforms the armour enough for a spike or fluke or sword tip to pierce it. When a sword is held by the blade with both hands and swung so that a quillon or pommel strikes the armour, the quillon and pommel can also dent plate armour. I suppose any blade that fits into an eye sight of a helm or gap of armour can potentially kill the knight.

Generally, weapons got stuck in armour the moment it is pierced, which is why blunt weapons like warhammers (hammer side) and maces bounced off plate after contact, denting it, but not getting stuck in it. Some knights were killed in battle without their armour ever being pierced, as blunt trauma goes through armour, but stays inside it somewhat like how when a bell rings the movement remains within it, possibly rupturing organs, breaking bones, etc..

It was not until the sixteenth century that appeared plate armour so advanced it used sockets, hinges and such to an extent that it completely encased the knight in steel and offered almost complete articulation for the body, and sometimes even mechanical parts. Here’s a link to such an armour, and I would imagine that, since there is no gap, the only way to defeat such a knight would be to use a two-handed weapon or stab a blade into the eye eight.

http://***.youtube.***/watch?v=YPKrAfww79U&feature=related
Henry VIII's foot combat armour for the Field of Cloth of Gold tournament in 1520

Ultimately, since no-one has ever been in an actual medieval battlefield, and there is no way to learn true killing from demonstrations and modern “living history” re-enactments and videos, imagination is the only means of picturing the finale of combat.

04-Feb-2013 01:09:57

Azigarath

Azigarath

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In my stories, I describe head-butts (helm-butts, as the wearer is wearing a helm), push-kicks, pushes, and shoulder bashes, all of which I have tried against upright-stacked logs, but not so much into other people.

I believe that, even if something is not historically accurate, doesn’t mean that it never happened or is ineffective. If a plated knight is not standing upright, he loses balance easily, too.

Quality of armour is a major issue, too. Almain Rivets, export armours, were made of steel but were low quality and thin, about two millimetres thick (and of the approximate strength of most replica breastplates), and although this is certainly plate armour, it dents easily. It seems that two-handed weapons, or even one-handed warhammers and axes, could punch through such infantry armour. Hardwood clubs can also dent plate armour.

From personal experience, I noticed that a two-handed modern wedged axe for forestry, when swung downward as strong as I could, can crush into a 16 gauge steel greathelm, not piercing it, but denting the metal in shape of the axe blade so much that it would have easily broke through someone’s scalp. The wedged head was large and heavy, so the dent was perhaps three inches deep and long, and indeed the axe did separate the metal only by a few millimetres, but such a strike would have certainly killed someone, unless the helm was tall and conical, the top well above the skull.

Here’s a Cold Steel test with a war hammer, showing what it can do against plate:

War Hammer: Cold Steel
http://***.youtube.***/watch?v=qhknaG9ifbs

Gunpowder and magic would be the only other things that could kill an armoured knight. Chainmail is another story, and can be pierced by skinny blades, couched lances, and most heavy polearms like halberds and two-handed maces/axes, and bodkins and bolts can also pierce mail at close range.

I suppose you could also push a knight into a lake :/

Oh, here's something else:
http://***.youtube.***/watch?v=mCL8ONmOKBw

04-Feb-2013 01:10:22 - Last edited on 04-Feb-2013 02:20:03 by Azigarath

Graydon
Sep Member 2023

Graydon

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Was working on an English paper about Coleridge and how the Rime of the Ancient Mariner is a lot like a medieval ballad and was reminded of your genius with this story. It captured my attention and took me into the magical realm of Runescape, and for that I thank you chuk.

Eventually I will reread the Echoes of the Gods.

The stories section of the forums has not produced many fine works lately, but you and the author of the Prince's Wish and that trilogy will forever be known to me as the greatest Story tellers Runescape has seen. :)

(I will be back.)

17-Feb-2013 20:04:30

The Level

The Level

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Perhaps you want to lock this thread and just post what you have? A new thread full of potential can be more motivational and less intimidating than 500+ posts of reserves. Just a thought. As usual, waiting for the next installment.

=-= Level =-=

19-Feb-2013 15:01:16

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