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Own Amnesty

Own Amnesty

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All good points. What I would say to this -

Azi Demonica said :
But yes, non-binary characters are still rare in media, there’s no problem having them, so long as they are written well or sourced from an actual non-binary individual to maximise relatability. Art needs to be relatable and emotional, after all.


- is that Bebop seems to be something of a unique position. As Yubiusk and the actor in question have said, this character was always coded as non-binary but that specific language didn't really exist in the mainstream in 1998 to be applied. There is nothing to indicate that the character was written by a non-binary person, but they have become an icon to LBGTQ+ viewers nonetheless and so I think that applying the label retroactively is appropriate in this situation.

Otherwise yes, I think that representation is best handled by those needing the representation. Whether or not the industry facilitates that is another question, but that's neither here nor there. Yubiusk did a much better job addressing that point than I did, and in a way I hadn't considered. Disregard this bit.

Of course it's really not my call to make, but those are just my thoughts.
Joe? It's your post on Hard Times.

23-Nov-2020 01:21:22 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2020 01:26:47 by Own Amnesty

YuBiusk Ink

YuBiusk Ink

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Azi Demonica said :
This is why concept art of HR Giger for ALIEN remains iconic, because he wasn’t motivated by politics or profits, he created the art genuinely and it remains popular and cool--even though the franchise has seen better days.
I think this is honestly a really ill-advised take. Motivation by profits aside (though I certainly agree they tend to be a terrible motivator), all art is motivated by politics of some stripe. Alien itself was massively influenced by gender politics of the time, for instance, in ways we shouldn't go into here. Some of the most famous works and creators of all time were intensely political for their era—M*A*S*H, Blazing Saddles, Howl's Moving Castle (every Ghibli movie, actually), The Matrix*, Mary Poppins, the Portal duology, Huckleberry Finn, and Giger's inspiration, H.P. Lovecraft** all spring to mind. Heck, even Runescape has a lot to say about war and ideology, even if a lot of it was by accident. By accident, by the way, is often how some of the worst political messages can emerge, like how Cars 3 accidentally created an extremely overt and ugly disability parallel. Not thinking about a work's political meaning doesn't mean it won't be there.

All art is political. You don't have to let it define your appreciation of a given work, but to suggest that being "apolitical" is even possible , much less desirable, is actually really unsettling to me. To suggest art should have nothing to say about the world it was released into would be to strip the teeth from it.

* It's literally about coming out as trans. Like, the creators have said as much.
** During his career as a writer, Lovecraft was intensely racist (even for his era), and most of his works carry often extremely overt messages to that effect. I didn't say they were all good political works.

23-Nov-2020 01:24:23 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2020 01:35:44 by YuBiusk Ink

Own Amnesty

Own Amnesty

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True, Lovecraft was massively racist. Also good friends and penpals with Robert E. Howard of Conan the Barbarian fame, whose own views on race evolved quite a bit over the span of his career. I only mention that because it demonstrates that while politics and art may be inextricable, neither are static or immutable.
Joe? It's your post on Hard Times.

23-Nov-2020 01:32:44

Azi Demonica

Azi Demonica

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[fixing post's paragraphing]


Ink, 3343 and Amnesty, 3344
I, too, have no obligation to make history. I, too, have no obligation to make art. I, too, have no obligation to make a statement. To make honesty is my only objective.

I don’t see how well-written or reality-sourced non-binary characters eliminates them. We are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are excessively bullied and vastly more likely to kill themselves, so the correct response is more effort to support them.


YuBiusk Ink, 3344, about art and politics
I had no idea, shows what I know, not much.

“All art is political. You don't have to let it define your appreciation of a given work, but to suggest that being "apolitical" is even possible , much less desirable, is actually really unsettling to me. To suggest art should have nothing to say about the world it was released into would be to strip the teeth from it.” that’s called propaganda, something I do not wish to be associated with.

I had no idea The Matrix was about coming out as trans, I thought it was about robots who took over the world and enslaved humans in a virtual reality and later fought them.

Lovecraft was indeed racist, also against Germans, he was basically an Anglo-supremacists (if such a term even exists). Even if you look at pictures of him, he looks like a paranoid teenager in an adult body who’s never been in a fight in his life (wouldn’t be surprised if he had his racist views to make up for his lack of physicality and health--desperation to be viewed as manly). Nevertheless, I acknowledge his art and talents and literary movement, none of which I possess.

23-Nov-2020 22:30:51 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2020 22:38:09 by Azi Demonica

Azi Demonica

Azi Demonica

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Annie1227 said :
Azi, I posted on omega. Is my post ok?
it is OK, though I sent you a PM saying Annie is able to open the box, and she even obtained a unique Perk that allows her to solve puzzle boxes. Basically, whenever Annie chooses to solve the puzzle box, she will do so automatically. Nevertheless, I can still have Newborn explain it to you if you wish.

23-Nov-2020 22:31:03

YuBiusk Ink

YuBiusk Ink

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Azi Demonica said :

I don’t see how well-written or reality-sourced non-binary characters eliminates them. We are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are excessively bullied and vastly more likely to kill themselves, so the correct response is more effort to support them.
How many nonbinary filmmakers do you think are in a position to work on shows like Cowboy Bebop? That's my concern. This standard is well-intentioned, but in reality, it's just going to basically ensure that the vast majority of movies and shows only feature straight cis white guys. I'd rather see good-faith efforts by everyone toward diverse casting.

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that’s called propaganda, something I do not wish to be associated with.
Is Blazing Saddles propaganda? Is Animal Farm propaganda? Is 1984 propaganda? I'm not sure I understand what this word means, if we can use it to dismiss any work with a central theme. All works have themes and statements to make. Propaganda is when a work tries to deceive you to force its message through to an extent that we deem "icky". It's actually pretty relative. I'd call most cop shows propaganda, since they glorify and romanticize police, exaggerate the prevalence of violent crime to make militant policing look necessary, and often receive special access and resources from police departments, but a lot of people would probably dismiss that as a total hot take.

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I had no idea The Matrix was about coming out as trans, I thought it was about robots who took over the world and enslaved humans in a virtual reality and later fought them.
Like I said, the Wachowski sisters have literally confirmed that it was a deliberate allegory. Symbolism runs rampant through the work (like Neo going by a second "true name" which the villain refuses to respect). Heck, one of the main characters was envisioned as nonbinary. So I don't know what to tell you. :P

23-Nov-2020 23:57:18 - Last edited on 24-Nov-2020 00:04:16 by YuBiusk Ink

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