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the quick brown fox jumps over

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Rancher

Rancher

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Poetry isn't always saying something in the fewest number of words. It's about making an observation--be it of a physical thing or a metaphorical concept--and telling about it in such a way that the poem is something that people will like to read. And that's a really bad definition. It's hard to define what poetry is. :P
But to illustrate my point, I'll post two poems, both by a poet laureate. One is free verse, the other is not. I know comparing poetry is an apples to oranges sort of thing, but I tried to pick a good example of each that were about the same size, in order to make this comparison as legitimate as possible.
"Hide and Seek"
It's hard not
to jump out
instead of
waiting to be
found. It's
hard to be
alone so long
and then hear
someone come
around. It's
like some form
of skin's developed
in the air
that, rather
than have torn,
you tear.

"Nothing Gold Can Stay"
Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.

Now, "Hide and Seek" certainly isn't bad, but I think you would agree with me in the notion that "Nothing Gold Can Stay" is better. And I realize that my argument is extremely, extremely flawed--just because one rhyming poem is better than one free verse poem doesn't mean rhymed verses are superior. But there's no way to illustrate my argument without bringing actual poems into the debate.
And honestly. Think of your five favorite famous poems. I bet at least 4 of them have rhymed verses. Well-known poems tend to be rhymed-versed, which would seem to reflect that, at the very least, rhyming poems are more memorable.
I do like the freedom free verse gives, though. I personally like writing in an x/a/x/a/x/b/x/b pattern; i.e., every other line rhymes. I get the freedom of free verse with the beauty of a rhyme scheme. I also try to keep my poems in iambic pentameter. I'm picky though. :P

30-Jun-2011 00:45:19

Nguy4

Nguy4

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Exactly, poetry is conveying EXPERIENCE. But the defining quality of poetry is conveying that experience - be it physical or metaphysical - with the least amount of words. The condense expression of experience. Instead of blatantly stating what it is, they use symbols, personification, imagery and allusions, which on its own uses less words than the alternative. And if you think about, that's what separates prose from poetry. It's trying to say something lyrical and figurative with as few words as possible.
Actually, the more probably reason why 4/5 poems are rhyme-versed favorite is not because its innately better than free verse, it's because free verse has only come into conception for the past 200 hundred years, a modicum in the vast history of structured verse. But I don't deny that well-known poems tend to be rhymed-versed. It's because we naturally fall in love with the sing-song aspect of poetry. It's one of tools a poet has at their disposal: sound. Meter and rhyme are often how a poem memorable and resonant. But just because its sing-songy poem doesn't intrinsically mean it's better than a free verse poem. It delves so much deeper than that. A formalized rhyme scheme and meter is only one tool a poet has. They can elect to use it or not and that's their personal preference. But there are so many more facets to poetry that sound is really an amplifier of, not the sole purpose. And you seem to think that free prose doesn't even take in consideration rhyme scheme or meter. They do!
"Although free verse requires no meter, rhyme, or other traditional poetic techniques, a poet can still utilize them to create some sense of structure.... Because of a lack of predetermined form, free verse poems have the potential to take truly unique shapes. The poet is given more license to express and, unrestrained by traditional bounds, has more control over the development of the poem." (Wiki)

30-Jun-2011 05:59:13 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2011 06:50:34 by Nguy4

Nguy4

Nguy4

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You cannot deny that T.S. Eliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" is no less poignant or memorable. Here's just the first stanza:
Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question …
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.
Even here you can appreciate how free verse doesn't automatically do away with the sound aspect of poetry. Eliot effectively makes use of rhyme and alliteration to reinforce and emphasize his artistic theme.
If you disregard free verse, you disregard Eliot, Whitman, Dickinson, Cummings, Frost and Yeats. You deny an artistic movement. You deny rebellion, a break from tradition, modernism. You deny Picasso, Joyce and Einstein.
In fact, you even understand and even use free verse yourself with your own rhyme scheme there. All I'm saying is that free verse is no worse than structured verse, or vice verse. I'm arguing that structured verse is not innately better than free verse. It's what inside that poem that counts. If your going to write a good poem, regardless of the form, it is going demanding and difficult.

30-Jun-2011 06:19:24 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2011 06:46:35 by Nguy4

Rancher

Rancher

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The "sing-song aspect of poetry" is what makes it great. I can draw a picture, and it can have the best message in the world. But if the drawing is horrible, it likely will not become a Mona Lisa.
Likewise, I can write a book, and it can have the best message of any book that has ever been written. But if mai speling n gramar be horible it not goin 2 b a gud book.
And I realize that free verse is a valid art form. But there are a lot of people who don't like it, and I just happen to be one of those people. Poetry is, indeed, centralized around the message. A meaningless poem, no matter how beautifully it is written, will never amount to glory. But at the same time, it needs to be written well. It needs to have a poetic, "sing-song" feel to it. And this, in a few rare instances, can be accomplished by free verse. But rhyme and pentameter play a powerful role.
The poem you posted is not, in my opinion, a true "free verse" poem. It uses rhyme, almost having a distinct pattern (a, a, x, b, b, c, c, d, d, x, e, e), and the length of its lines consistently follow a pattern (short, long, long, long, short, long, long, long, short, long, long, long).
The rhyme pattern I use is also not free verse. Although only every other line rhymes, it has a distinct rhyme pattern and meter. I have a 48 line poem that follows the (x, a, x, a, x, b, x, b) rhyme pattern with a very strict iambic pentameter; additionally, every non-rhyming line has 8 syllables and each rhyming line has 6 syllables. This is consistent throughout the entire poem. I have the freedom to do whatever I want within those lines--I even don't have to rhyme half the verses--but I conform it to a mould.

01-Jul-2011 00:53:29

Rancher

Rancher

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Now, let's move on to the people whom I am apparently disregarding.
Eliot -- I'm actually not a huge fan of his. I'm not disregarding him; I realize he was one of the most influential poets of the 20th century. But I'm just not a fan of the style he used.
Whitman -- Not a big fan of his, either.
Dickinson -- I quite like several of her poems. I especially like "Hope (Is the Thing with Feathers)". It's among my five favourite poems. That said, I'm not a fan of her free verse.
Cummings -- Hm... I'm also not a huge Cummings fan. That said, I sort of like "i carry your heart with me". It is definitely not one of my favourite poems, but I don't dislike it. It's one of the few free verse poems that I enjoy. I don't get his other poems though. "Snow" is really bad, in my opinion.
Frost -- Actually, he's my favourite poet. You'll notice I used his poem "Nothing Gold Can Stay" as an example earlier; I like several of his poems. But I really don't care for his free verse poems, either.
Yeats -- Not a fan of his either. Again, I don't disregard him, I just don't like him.
Picasso -- I don't what he has to do with poetry, but okay. If you must, I'm not a huge Picasso fan either. I would prefer a da Vinci or a Michelangelo or a Van Gogh to a Picasso. I prefer realistic-looking art to abstract art; however, I also like Romanticism, Surrealism, and some Expressionism. I just don't like Cubism.
Joyce -- I actually don't know much about him; I'm not going to pretend I do. I looked up some of his poems; a few of them I like a little.
And really, it's not the poet that I don't like. It's the style of free verse.
Einstein -- Really? How is it that you liken a poetic preference to science? The revolution Einstein made in science isn't a "movement" as much as it is a discovery. Einstein is easily one of my favourite people in history.

01-Jul-2011 00:53:39 - Last edited on 01-Jul-2011 01:57:02 by Rancher

Rancher

Rancher

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Anyway, we both agree that poetry is an art form, just like music and paintings. Do you like all types of music? Rap, country, classical, punk rock, heavy metal, bluegrass, gospel, and opera?
I'm sure you genuinely hate at least one of those genres. And probably with just cause. And I realize that this is the same with my aversion to free verse poetry and cubism. (I also don't like the type of art where they just fling the brush and make something that literally everyone with no ability can replicate.)
So at the end of the day, it's just personal preferences, and I realize this. I can't say that rhymed-verse is superior to free-verse. But it is my opinion that it is. That's just my opinion, but that's what I believe.
Obviously we have some differences in opinion on some things. I'm sure we could find a thousand other things about which we disagree, and there's little point in arguing about any of them--we're both open to new ideas, but it's unlikely that our beliefs will change.
All that said... Back to my original point... Great thread, and I really like post 8. :P

01-Jul-2011 01:57:29 - Last edited on 01-Jul-2011 02:08:02 by Rancher

Nguy4

Nguy4

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Can I make few last points?
It seems like you have the wrong perception of free verse. Free verse CAN incorporate meter and rhyme. It's not like there is any TRUE free verse poem.
And could you possibly concede that sometimes that conventional meter and rhyme, for example, can be constricting and actually prevent, in some cases, true poetic lyricism and expression as it acts a straitjacket?
Do not get me wrong, I adorn sonnets as it forces you to condense you thoughts and ideas, but that's why free verse is there as an option too.
Also I understand the sing-songy is important. Completely get you. But I mean free poets also have this in mind. All poets do. It's just not going to be in a consistent rhyme scheme.
And with the Picasso, Joyce and Einstein thing I was using them to show you how all aspects of culture have led to a consistently unconventional, radical and anti-classical era.
I was in your same place before. Didn't give free verse its due. But since then I've seen the "light." I just wanted to argue so you can be open-minded to free verse because some of these poets and poems are essential to literature.
With that being said :p, thank you for the compliment and intellectual discussion. I quite enjoyed it :D .

02-Jul-2011 03:12:01 - Last edited on 02-Jul-2011 03:13:04 by Nguy4

Rancher

Rancher

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^ Yes, I do realize that--on some occasions--conventional rhymes and meters can constrict a poem. But being able to work within those boundaries is what makes a poet great. When you throw rhyme and meter out the window completely, I personally don't like the result. I think poets have a wide range of tools at their disposal to make the poem work and keep the "sing-song" aspect that adds splendor to so many poems.
__
I'm going to call on Robert Frost again with "Fire and Ice".
Some say the world will end in fire;
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
__
Technically, there's no definite meter or rhyme scheme, so it could be called "free verse". But it still utilizes rhyme, as well as iambic pentameter and dimeter.
Also keep in mind that I've written in free verse before and was somewhat pleased with the results. But a poet who uses free verse will still need to use something else--be it meter, rhyme, repetition, or the like--to make a good poem (in my opinion at least).
I do try to keep an open mind about things--free verse included. Time will tell whether I see the proverbial "light".
But I think I'll always be partial to rhymed-verse. ;)
- Rancher
P.S. -- I liked this intellectual discussion too. ^_^

02-Jul-2011 13:48:24

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