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Dev blog: Rewarding Rewards Thread is locked

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WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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So instead of throwing dirt at each other, let's look at the numbers? Taking the numbers from this thread: Quick find code: 321-322-24-65225686 .

Normally:
At 0kg 100% lasts 150 ticks or 90 seconds
At 10kg 100% lasts 130 ticks or 78 seconds
At 20kg 100% lasts 115 ticks or 69 seconds
At 30kg 100% lasts 103 ticks or 61.8 seconds
At 40kg 100% lasts 93 ticks or 55.8 seconds
At 50kg 100% lasts 85 ticks or 51 seconds
At 60kg 100% lasts 78 ticks or 46.8 seconds
At 64kg 100% lasts 75 ticks or 45 seconds

So 100% energy lasts from 90 seconds to 45 seconds, depending on weight.

Now we look at the energy regeneration which is triggered by agility:
0-5 takes 1250 ticks or 750 seconds
24-29 takes 834 ticks or 500 seconds
48-53 takes 625 ticks or 375 seconds
102-107 takes 400 ticks or 240 seconds

So it takes 240 to 750 seconds to get from 0 to 100% energy depending on agility level.

Now the potion is said to reduce the rate that your energy drains when running by 70%. I assume this means that it takes 70% more seconds (ticks) to go from 100 to 0 energy.

This would result in the following numbers:
153 seconds at 0 kg
132,6 seconds at 10 kg
117,3 seconds at 20 kg
105,06 seconds at 30 kg
94,86 seconds at 40 kg
91,8 seconds at 50 kg
79,56 seconds at 60 kg
76,5 seconds at 64 kg

In a situation where you are constantly running, or running a lot, this would indeed mean that the only thing that is affected, is the amount of super energy potions needed.

In a situation where you are not continuously running however, the fact that your energy barely drains does affect the value of agility. If you had normally have to wait 750 minutes to go back up from 0-100% (0-5 agil), after running 54 seconds with 50kg, you would now only have used 59% (1-(91,8-54)/91,8) of your running energy, meaning you would only have to wait 442 seconds instead of 750. The same goes for agility lvl 96+, the usefulness decreases for all levels.

11-Jun-2014 07:37:13 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 07:59:43 by WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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So the point that the usefulness of agility is affected by this potion is true. Surely, for some activities like RC the usefulness of agility was already limited and thus may not be affected much, but in other cases it is definitely being affected.

The bigger concern however, is the fact that we will need way less super energy potions. Surely you need to use one to create the stamina potion, but the stamina potion itself will also provide 20% energy per sip. In reality we would need 70% less energy potions than we do now.

Giving an example with 0% weight:
Normally one would last 90 seconds with 100% energy
With stamina potion one would last 153 seconds with 100% energy

I would vote no against a 70% reduction for 2 minutes. I would vote yes for a 25% reduction for 2 minutes or a 70% reduction for 30 seconds though. The potion would also have to be untradeable. I like the idea of have a reward from the marks of grace, but I don't want it to change the energy system dramatically.

If there should be a change in the energy system, I think it should be to increase the usefulness of agility levels, as this seems to have little impact when most needed (perhaps energy draining could be reduced up to 10% depending on your agility level). Surely we would have to be very careful when implementing such changes as the current system is quite good compared to the unlimited energy in RS3 which is totally detached from any reality..

@ JaGex, would it be possible to provide numbers of the effect of such a potion next time, it helps a great deal in making the right vote decision.

11-Jun-2014 07:37:21 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 08:01:02 by WhoCareZz

Rawrylol

Rawrylol

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@Rawrylol

I don't normally take the time to post anything on the forums, but I've been reading through this thread, and just wanted to say thank you for being intelligent and trying to cure some of the less fortunate members of the RS society of their stupidity, despite their unwillingness to listen to you most of the time.

Cheers.




Thankyou haha, I've been trying my best :) Glad to see at least some people understand what I'm trying to say.



@Tom - I still don't agree that it devalues agility at all. At what point are you going to be standing still for >450 seconds waiting for your run to replenish that you'd use these potions? And even if you can come up with something, the times you'd use the potion would be very intermittent, maybe a dose every 600 seconds (10 minutes) or so.

As for Super Energies being devalued, sure they possibly will see less of a demand, but instead I'd expect these two things happen:


First, the amylase will come into the game at such a slow rate that the energy restore potions will be to Super Energies what Prayer Renewal potions were to regular prayer potions to start with. The new potions would be extremely expensive and difficult to get hold of so Super Energies would still keep their value due to their slight fall in demand due to the new potion being met by the fact you need it to make the new potion.

Second, the xp gains from adding the amylase will be high enough that Super Energies keep their demand up through people wanting to train herblore and get them quick xp's. The demand for Super Energies in that situation would at least stay the same, if not actually rise.


And anyway, isn't saying this potion will devalue Super Energies just like saying Super Energies devalue Energy potions? Or Super Strengths devalue Strength potions? Or anything for that matter. The potions will be tradeable so everyone has access to them, so it's not a benefit for high level'd players.

11-Jun-2014 09:05:50

WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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On some part we simply disagree, which is fine. We should probably leave that part of discussion, as it doesn't look we will end up agreeing on this.

What I want to comment on however is that indeed Super Energy potions devalued energy potions, but also the Super Energy potion decreased the usefulness of agility. If we would not have the option to recover energy in any other way than via the Agility level system, Agility would be much more useful than it is currently. Of course we would not be able to train skills like RC as efficient as we do now, but that is not the point. The point is that such potions do indeed reduce the energy benefits one gets from agility levels.

Surely the Super Strength potion devalued the Strength potion although I'm not sure what your point is with this?

About the stamina potion being tradable, I think we should this should be part of the poll. You can argue that the potion has to be accessible for everyone, but you can also argue that people should do their own rooftop courses to get the pots.

Of course we can disagree on our votes, that is quite typical for the voting system, but I think it's kind of strange that people call others stupid simply because they disagree or view things from a different perspective.

11-Jun-2014 09:53:37 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 09:58:53 by WhoCareZz

Rawrylol

Rawrylol

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What I want to comment on however is that indeed Super Energy potions devalued energy potions, [Cut for space*

Surely the Super Strength potion devalued the Strength potion although I'm not sure what your point is with this?


I agree, energy potions did devalue agility from the offset, but then how far would we have to take Runescape back before nothing abased anything else? My point with the strength potions ties into this: everything loses it's initial value at some point. Every update will devalue something somewhere, so it's inevitable. The only way MMORPGs can update is by introducing new items/skills/quests/whatever else that will in some way devalue something already in the game. The issue therefore is damage limitation - what serves as an acceptable way to devalue something, and what deserves to be depreciated in the first place.

That's where our divide lies. I personally believe that the damage is very small due to agility not actually having much effect and Super Energies being replaced in the way they replace regular Energy potions. Sure, it'd mean another potion has less worth but I personally don't see a huge issue with that, and I don't think that many amylase will come into the market so we'll definitely still see a place for Super Energies.

Original message details are unavailable.
About the stamina potion being tradable, ...


I'd agree it should be a part of the poll. I see what you're saying about it being a reward for high level'd agility players, but surely the fact they'd be able to make money from it instead of the potion would be the reward?

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Of course we can disagree on our votes, but that is quite typical for the voting system.. I think it's kind of strange that people call others stupid simply because they disagree or view things from a different perspective.


I'll agree on that!

11-Jun-2014 10:08:19

WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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I agree, energy potions did devalue agility from the offset, but then how far would we have to take Runescape back before nothing abased anything else? My point with the strength potions ties into this: everything loses it's initial value at some point. Every update will devalue something somewhere, so it's inevitable. The only way MMORPGs can update is by introducing new items/skills/quests/whatever else that will in some way devalue something already in the game. The issue therefore is damage limitation - what serves as an acceptable way to devalue something, and what deserves to be depreciated in the first place.

That's where our divide lies. I personally believe that the damage is very small due to agility not actually having much effect and Super Energies being replaced in the way they replace regular Energy potions. Sure, it'd mean another potion has less worth but I personally don't see a huge issue with that, and I don't think that many amylase will come into the market so we'll definitely still see a place for Super Energies.


Yes, I think this is exactly the point. Now for super strength pots one can argue that with increasing strength of monsters, there is need for stronger potions as well. However for energy I don't think there is currently much of an issue.. The way I see it, this potion is implemented only in order to give an additional reward to the marks of grace, rather than to solve a problem (because there is none IMO). Very similar to the coal/gem bags introduced earlier. Now, I find we have to be extremely careful with such updates and not repeat the mistakes were made in RS3, that led to achievements being worthless because everything is extremely easy.

11-Jun-2014 10:19:28 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 10:20:03 by WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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About the stamina potion being tradable, ...


I'd agree it should be a part of the poll. I see what you're saying about it being a reward for high level'd agility players, but surely the fact they'd be able to make money from it instead of the potion would be the reward?


Well to be honest the level requirement isn't that high, only 77 Herblore. I think making money is so much of a standard thing, that it would satisfy me more to have perks that can be unlocked at certain levels (between 70 and 80 I think is perfect for OldSchool atm), rather than another money-making method. I do see your point, but it's just a matter of personal preference :)

11-Jun-2014 10:34:50 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 10:36:35 by WhoCareZz

GOD GUNBLADE
Mar Member 2024

GOD GUNBLADE

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maybe its a little bit late but as far i have seen we only really have melee and mage amulets ( offcourse we have a 3rd age range amulet) but what about normal one's or a range amulet (t) for clues ? maybe its something fo rin future and not only for old school but maybe for rs3 to ?

11-Jun-2014 10:55:44

Rawrylol

Rawrylol

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About the stamina potion being tradable, ...


I'd agree it should be a part of the poll. I see what you're saying about it being a reward for high level'd agility players, but surely the fact they'd be able to make money from it instead of the potion would be the reward?


Well to be honest the level requirement isn't that high, only 77 Herblore. I think making money is so much of a standard thing, that it would satisfy me more to have perks that can be unlocked at certain levels (between 70 and 80 I think is perfect for OldSchool atm), rather than another money-making method. I do see your point, but it's just a matter of personal preference :)



Maybe a better way of doing it would be to have the amylase be tradeable but the potion not be tradeable? That way people with a high enough herblore level would be able to make it and people can still get a continuous profit from agility instead of just doing a few laps when they need a potion.

This is how they did it with the Extreme Potions and things like Grenwal Spikes.

11-Jun-2014 11:01:07 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 11:01:35 by Rawrylol

WhoCareZz

WhoCareZz

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Maybe a better way of doing it would be to have the amylase be tradeable but the potion not be tradeable? That way people with a high enough herblore level would be able to make it and people can still get a continuous profit from agility instead of just doing a few laps when they need a potion.

This is how they did it with the Extreme Potions and things like Grenwal Spikes.


But that way you reward people with higher herblore rather than people that gather marks of grace, which was the original goal.. Well both would be rewarded as in money for marks, but the potion feels like the real reward, not so much the money..

11-Jun-2014 11:33:05 - Last edited on 11-Jun-2014 11:33:43 by WhoCareZz

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