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Smithing Rework Lorefail

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Hexie Kazumi
Jul Member 2012

Hexie Kazumi

Posts: 3,023 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rondstat said :
I guess I just don't understand why they'd take a substance that is so storied, that has so much lore built around how difficult it is to smith, legendary beyond the means of man, and then just slot it in alongside a couple other, new types of metal as just a midtier smithing product.

Sure, we're not exactly making "dragon" items, as we're not Dragonkin. But why introduce dragon ore at all, when you could just make up another type of metal - like the rest of the tiers in the proposed rework? It might not be completely lore breaking, but it is lore incongruous, when I see no reason why smithing would demand orikalkum.

Exactly my point.

@Hguoh

Yes, but at this point, I'm not convinced that they are doing justice to the lore. I would feel much better if the mods formally addressed this. Hence why I made this thread.

09-Oct-2016 07:05:20

Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,240 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hexie Kazumi said :
Rondstat said :
I guess I just don't understand why they'd take a substance that is so storied, that has so much lore built around how difficult it is to smith, legendary beyond the means of man, and then just slot it in alongside a couple other, new types of metal as just a midtier smithing product.

Sure, we're not exactly making "dragon" items, as we're not Dragonkin. But why introduce dragon ore at all, when you could just make up another type of metal - like the rest of the tiers in the proposed rework? It might not be completely lore breaking, but it is lore incongruous, when I see no reason why smithing would demand orikalkum.

Exactly my point.

@Hguoh

Yes, but at this point, I'm not convinced that they are doing justice to the lore. I would feel much better if the mods formally addressed this. Hence why I made this thread.
Ok how about this then...keep orikalkum as unqiue toe the Kin and their homeworld, but give Gielinor its very own.

Like the Stone of Jas changed the Nature of rock into rune essence a strong narutal flow of Anima in special places has transformed the surrounding rock in to a new ore. Gielium. Unique to Gielinor due to its powerful Anima Mundi, that would also leave to door open for the abyss to contain other such unique ores from previous Revisions.

Planets were demolished and swept into the abyss, so those piles of ore laden rubble are still there. You just need to find the right spot, things live there, there would know. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

09-Oct-2016 09:23:42 - Last edited on 10-Oct-2016 19:16:27 by Solanumtinkr

Wahisietel
Oct Member 2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
This thread in a nutshell



Wait until you actually know anything about the mining/smithing rework before whining about lorefails based on outright incorrect information. The rework isn't until next year and isn't even in active development.

We're getting some dev blogs this month, so maybe wait until those are out. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

09-Oct-2016 15:00:03 - Last edited on 09-Oct-2016 15:00:56 by Wahisietel

Mod Jack

Mod Jack

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
I think this thread has successfully identified the problem, which is that we keep referring to Orichalcum as Dragon in videos, etc. When I'm talking about M&S in the office (which I'm doing more or less constantly atm) I keep saying "Rune Tier, Dragon Tier, Necrite Tier" which doesn't make any sense.

In any case, I apologise for the confusion, although I definitely can't promise we won't keep making the same mistake because we totally will.

To reiterate, Orichalcum is the metal used by the dragonkin to make what is referred to as "Dragon" equipment. In the current vision of post-rework smithing, the player can mine and smelt the same metal, but the gear that they make won't be quite as advanced because they lack the secret, ancient techniques of the dragonkin.

One proposed mechanic actually uses melted down dragon items as a resource, for which orichalcum wouldn't be an acceptable substitute, which suggests that dragon equipment is still uniquely useful even at an alloy level.

---

If you'll allow me my own lorefail, I've been pondering whether Orichalcum is even the right name in the first place. Although the correspondence of real world cultures is by no means fixed or precise, we've got a pretty strong association that latin = zarosian, originally infernal. Similarly, there's a less strong association that greek = saradominist, with the dress style, colossi, centaurs and names like Padomenes.

This would suggest that orichalcum (which is a very strongly greek word) should be either icyene or teragardian in origin, not dragonkin. I would consider retconning this, since it only appears in one lore book (and only there because it was in the original M&S presentation).

14-Oct-2016 14:20:59

Rondstat

Rondstat

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Thank you Mod Jack!

I think some of us tend to get overzealous (myself absolutely included). Especially when it comes to things that have a big presence in the lore - we want them to be treated significantly, we want something that preserves the myth and story - and when it looks like that might not happen (with, say, a legendary metal getting unceremoniously slotted in as a midtier unlock), I think a lot of us tend to jump the gun and overreact, before we get the full story.

I'm very glad to hear that the role of dragon equipment is being treated as something exceptional, and I like the ideas (melting down existing dragon items seems like a very cool way of gaining materials). I really appreciate you addressing this, and taking the time to share with us.

Also - much thanks for the insight into language! I feel silly - I'd never even put together the Greek-Saradominist connection. It's fun to see how things are treated with this sort of internal consistency.

14-Oct-2016 14:37:53 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2016 14:38:30 by Rondstat

Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mod Jack said :
If you'll allow me my own lorefail, I've been pondering whether Orichalcum is even the right name in the first place. Although the correspondence of real world cultures is by no means fixed or precise, we've got a pretty strong association that latin = zarosian, originally infernal. Similarly, there's a less strong association that greek = saradominist, with the dress style, colossi, centaurs and names like Padomenes.

This would suggest that orichalcum (which is a very strongly greek word) should be either icyene or teragardian in origin, not dragonkin. I would consider retconning this, since it only appears in one lore book (and only there because it was in the original M&S presentation).

If the name is Icyenic/Teragardian in origin and we assume Saradominist just about equal Greece, the name still makes a fair bit of sense.

For one, consider who has had the most interaction/knowledge of the kin. Namely, Robert the Strong, a Teragardian, and Saradomin (courtesy of the Sleeper), also presumably Teragardian.

Furthermore, consider the origins of the name. Some of the earliest times Orichalcum is ever mentioned is referencing its use in Atlantis. And just as Atlantis was lost to the sea, so too was the dragonkin's homeworld lost to the Elder God's Great Revision.

Honestly, the only part that doesn't line up is why the Dragonkin wouldn't have their own term for it (as it is only used in a Dragonkin's journal at this point). To be fair though, most of the journal is in common/English, with only the occasional use of the Dragkin's language, so it's not entirely out of the question that he'd use the common term.

That being said, I'd think it fitting that the kin also have their own term for the metal, and substitute that in for one or more of the instances where Forcae writes 'our metal.'

14-Oct-2016 14:46:48 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2016 15:38:52 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Also, it wouldn't be the first time the kin incorporated another language's word into their speech/writing. I mean, Stonetoucher is almost certainly not native to their language, and neither is False User. However, both have been used by the kin, even though we know they have their own word for the latter.

14-Oct-2016 15:14:27 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2016 15:14:48 by Hguoh

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mod Jack said :
I
If you'll allow me my own lorefail, I've been pondering whether Orichalcum is even the right name in the first place. Although the correspondence of real world cultures is by no means fixed or precise, we've got a pretty strong association that latin = zarosian, originally infernal. Similarly, there's a less strong association that greek = saradominist, with the dress style, colossi, centaurs and names like Padomenes.

Would you mind telling us more about Second Age Saradominist culture was like, what would the intellectual culture look like? Was there philosophers, lawyers, law etc? The same way Greece is kind of known for.

One thing I found kind of cool is that Ancient Greece wasn't really an empire. It was more a group of colonies that were really only united in the sense that they shared a religion and similar values. Which I assume would be the same for Saradominist coloney's. So i think associating the two is a really good idea.

14-Oct-2016 16:13:09

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