RuneScape Forum Archive | Smithing Rework Lorefail

Hguoh

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Hexie Kazumi said :
Two things. 1) Jagex have, several times, stated that as of the current plans, Dragon is Dragon. All the t60 stuff will still be called Dragon at this stage.

2) Even in such a case as they made the distinction between the functions of the two processing methods, I then want to see a boost to the Dragon made by the Dragonkin to maintain the fair amount of lore regarding the metal.

That's just not true.

Throughout the entirety of development, Jagex has consistently clarified that the t60 stuff that we will be making is Orikalkum AND NOT DRAGON (that is reserved for the existing pieces of Dragon gear, future PvM exclusive drops, and existing or future stores). It's the same ore but a different metal.

Furthermore, they have also clarified that while Dragon gear has t60 stats and lvl60 equip requirements, Orikalkum gear will have t55 stats while maintaining the lvl60 equip requirement.

Edit: And also by making Honed Masterwork gear require the Dragon Forge, the equivalent piece of Dragon gear, and the equivalent piece of Orikalkum gear alongside the piece of Masterwork gear, Jagex has essentially secured the Dragon metal and the Dragonkin's high position in Smithing. It hints at special properties of the Dragon metal and Orikalkum in general as well as placing significant importance on the Dragonkin's methods of Smithing.

05-Oct-2016 10:57:32 - Last edited on 05-Oct-2016 11:04:17 by Hguoh

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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I guess I didn't see more recent documents. Though some mods continue to say "Dragon" which confused me I suppose.

If that's true about Honed Masterwork Gear, I want to see some kind of plans be required, because why should we be able to make such gear which is superior to the mythical Dragon metal supposedly worked by purportedly the best Smiths ever, without first having to get some information from one of their bases first.

05-Oct-2016 16:28:51

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,240 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

There is one faction that is drawing members from every nook and cranky, regardless of race. All you'd need to do is give them an Imcando Dwarf or 2 to teach the faction smiths, add in some outside extras, and problem solved. And if you want to go the whole 9 yards, throw in kin contact, one concerned that the current line of research their brethren is undertaking is extreme folly. The Faction? I am of course talking about the Godless. Due to a diverse background, they have a lot of potential contacts with allsorts of interesting information and dangerous toys.

The way the information escapes is either deliberate dissemination. Or a leak or 3, people wanting to teach their own race the same techniques.

The best work ever, is bound to be passed one day. Vyres were once an unstoppable scourge, now look at them. Enchanted silver weapons and armour was the legacy of human's part of the god wars. 3rd Age melee anyone? A tad better than Dragon, even if it is only armour.

The trick is laying the groundwork for it. There are events which can be tied together to start explaining sudden advances. The Runespan leading to a sudden increase in rune supplies that leads to advances in fields that were originally to costly. Which leads to newly created tool and techniques that were previously unavailable.

The Godless faction drawing together many races seeking every advantage they can. Knowledge is power, and they will need every scrap from anywhere they can find it. So things could have been uncovered, the last of races knowledge preserved in the factions archives or prentices. That in turn could bring together techniques and knowledge in ways that would otherwise have never happened.

Old knowledge that was lost or rarely used could turn up. Accidental discoveries. E.G. Tried to make rune easier to smith and instead makes a new alloy much, much strong. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

05-Oct-2016 18:33:10

Solanumtinkr

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Our diverse self education might draw things together, with a little help. We could inspire someone else to try that. Hell, maybe Evil Dave tried to make his very own Dragon armour in his basement and came up with that instead?

It's just a matter of introducing an explanation or 2. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

05-Oct-2016 18:34:32

May

2011

Aquamancer

Posts: 2,047 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Simple: because the supposedly rare and prestigeous dragon metals is not rare, nor prestigeous, just mostly inaccessible, nor is its craft nigh-inaccessible. According to JMods, dragon metal is the dragonkin equivalent to iron, meaning that the dragonkin used it in a lot of basic items, and have mass-produced a lot of dragon equipment, which they have apparently stored away in massive stashes, according to Postbag from the Hedge. We know that at least implings have found their ways to these stashes, so it's likely other races and monsters could've done the same.

Likewise, dragonsmithing does not require any special adaptions exclusive to the dragonkin, as dwarves, monkeys and Linza are all capable of making dragon equipment, although we do not know any details of how that was achieved, but if they could do it, it's reasonable to assume that so can any expert smith. Besides, it's not like dragon metal is the be-all and end-all of metallurgy: TzHaar, Lunar mages, zombie pirates, elves, Zarosian empire, aviansie, icyene, demons, ourgs, Mahjarrat, modern AND historical god armies, the Red Axe Company, Void Knights, Kal'gerion, Wushanko Islanders, Guardians of Guthix, the Airut, Ancient Goebies and Bilrach's forces are/were able to make equipment that is either just as good or stronger than dragon equipment.

05-Oct-2016 18:54:55

May

2011

Aquamancer

Posts: 2,047 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

However, dragon metal being very common does not immediately retcon the fact that the dragonkin are not master smiths. According the JMods, the dragonkin have produced various better metals when dragon metal wouldn't do the trick, royal crossbow being one such example. Given that the highest-level metal humanity has been wide-spreadly been able to manufacture is runite, a level 50 metal which is about 40 levels below iron, and that humanity has managed to produce, or has worked with various metal equipments even above dragon, we could assume that that dragonkin metallurgy's equivalent to runite would be a tier 100 metal, and metals the dragonkin would consider legendary to go up to level 120.

Likewise, what is amazing or legendary is relative to the speaker. Regular humans would consider anything anything stronger than black metal rare, stronger than rune legendary and anything beyond dragon one-of-a-kind artifact, while adventurers would consider even the most expensive and rare pieces of equipment nothing out of ordinary. After all, most human NPCs are not very wealthy, so they cannot hope to afford anything more expensive than steel.

05-Oct-2016 18:55:10

May

2011

Aquamancer

Posts: 2,047 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

In fact, it's very much possible that the reason for the public fascination for dragon metal is because that was the strongest metal most people knew about for decades. After all, the previous generation of adventurers couldn't have access God Wars Dungeon, Daemonheim, Tirannwn, Eastern Lands or other dimensions, so their choice of equipment must've been limited to weaker equipment, most notable rune and dragon. So when adventurers of the olden days wielded dragon weapons when they slayed beasts who threatened human settlements, people knew that dragon metal was the rarest metal around and legendary enough that stories were told about them, but were just common enough that people knew they weren't just one-of-a-kind weapons and something someone, with enough money, could buy or find. Therefore, even when the newest generation of adventurers have found equipment that cuts through dragon like molten butter, the public at large remembers dragon as the be-all and end-all of metals.

05-Oct-2016 18:56:12

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

While Guthix Sleeps establishes that the dwarves aren't able to work with Dragon stuff to a large degree, not even with the Blast fusion hammer, and post-quest dialogue with Linza establishes that she's only able to "smith" dragon in the same way we are with the Dragon platebody (by reforging pieces of already created Dragon metal at the Dragonkin Forge).

The Dwarves supposedly making Dragon stuff post-Birthright of the Dwarves is a lorefail, and Zeke is the only source on the Monkeys actually making Dragon scimitars themselves.

But as we know, Dragon is not actually a unique metal , it's just what we call the stuff the Dragonkin made out of Orikalkum. Stuff we make out of Orikalkum will not be identical by virtue of us not being Dragonkin. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

05-Oct-2016 20:21:32

Rondstat

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I guess I just don't understand why they'd take a substance that is so storied, that has so much lore built around how difficult it is to smith, legendary beyond the means of man, and then just slot it in alongside a couple other, new types of metal as just a midtier smithing product.

Sure, we're not exactly making "dragon" items, as we're not Dragonkin. But why introduce dragon ore at all, when you could just make up another type of metal - like the rest of the tiers in the proposed rework? It might not be completely lore breaking, but it is lore incongruous, when I see no reason why smithing would demand orikalkum.

07-Oct-2016 15:19:13

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Rondstat said :
I guess I just don't understand why they'd take a substance that is so storied, that has so much lore built around how difficult it is to smith, legendary beyond the means of man, and then just slot it in alongside a couple other, new types of metal as just a midtier smithing product.

Sure, we're not exactly making "dragon" items, as we're not Dragonkin. But why introduce dragon ore at all, when you could just make up another type of metal - like the rest of the tiers in the proposed rework? It might not be completely lore breaking, but it is lore incongruous, when I see no reason why smithing would demand orikalkum.

Because it does have a place in lore, which the others currently lack.
Because, much like combat wield requirements, being an adventurer grants us certain privileges when it comes to finding and using things, occasionally beyond that of other experts in a given field.
Because it's use in Honed Masterwork helps explain why a powerful and skilled race like the Dragonkin would bother making such a mediocre metal when superior alternatives are clearly available (which also builds upon the existing ability of dragon metal's to stabilize elven crystal).

07-Oct-2016 15:55:58 - Last edited on 08-Oct-2016 03:13:40 by Hguoh

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Smithing Rework Lorefail