RuneScape Forum Archive | In Defense Of Pringles

Dec

2020

Aterivus

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@Lianna98

Your comparisons of societies stems from the fact that Saradominist societies both exist and thrive across the world, and Zamorakians have virtually none. You have this idea that a Zamorakian society could never be self-sustaining, but it doesn't seem as if Zamorakians ever really had an issue with existing together. Generally, we've still seen Zamorakian groups and individuals work together well-enough - the majority of conflicts are not among themselves. Many of your points are made out of a lack of existing evidence; i.e. we've hardly ever seen an actual Zamorakian civilization by itself, and, prior to the Wizard's Tower destruction, they were effectively integrated into the existing ones. Hell, the Bandosian races seemed to be able to live together from the Bandosian civilization we've encountered, despite supporting perhaps the harshest ideology. Conversely, we've never actually encountered an Armadyllean society, would it be wise to use this as the basis for claiming the Armadylean philosophy cannot create a stable society?

A world of chaos is nothing anyone should strive for; if the fires of chaos burn for eternity, it results only in ash - useless ash. Zamorakianism isn't about setting ablaze that eternal fire, but ensuring that when the fire does burn, we know how to deal with it. You acknowledge that Chaos is necessary, yet it should not reign supreme. I agree with you. Even Zamorak himself would agree with you. You pointed out that he has used social order and control among his ranks in the past, I imagine you were attempting to show some of his hypocrisy on the freedom/servitude issue. Incidentally, I see this as a positive. All beings tend toward Order, it seems to be the desirable state of existence; we all want to find our way in the world and ensure that way still exists tomorrow.

-continued- " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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14-Oct-2015 22:06:34

Dec

2020

Aterivus

Posts: 6,733 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Unity in the face of adversity was touched upon as a core element of Zamorakianism. A collective society with emphasis on individual merit is entirely sustainable - it's essentially how western civilization governs itself in our world in modern times. Chaos is not the solution, it is the catalyst for sparking what is necessary to find the solution. That is the governing principle of Zamorakianism, and where the placement of chaos exists in the philosophy - not to be the end result, but to exist in order to guide us to the end result.

You seem to be of the belief that the end result of a Zamorakian world is barbarous anarchists running wild, lawlessness the only truth in the world, and society collapsing on itself as every person would throw friend and enemy alike to the wolves for a scrap of power or influence. In all this, you don't seem to recognize what the ideology truly strives for is something far less sinister - the elimination of centralized power.

From both the themes of the philosophy and J-mod discussions, we've learned that a Zamorakian world's primary focus is to deviate from centralized power. People living in the societies they want, under the type of governance they believe in, and not to have one singular being umbrella everyone under some theocratic monarchy. When the dust settles, Zamorak's approach to the world is said to be laissez-faire, with mortals free to govern themselves for better or worse.

Is the pattern not apparent enough?

Zamorak's world is one of mortals free to do as they please. Zaros' world is no longer about a world-spanning empire, and even in elder godhood, his goal is for mortals to largely run their own lives. Armadyl's had the approach to being a guide, rather than a ruler, for some time. Seren's newfound goal is to eventually move away from the world, seeking mortals to be free. In some way, shape, or form, they all support the idea of mortals being capable of governing themselves independently.

-con- " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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14-Oct-2015 22:06:39 - Last edited on 14-Oct-2015 22:14:11 by Aterivus

Dec

2020

Aterivus

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It's Saradomin who has yet to catch on to the trend. And this is the issue people take with him, Zamorakian or otherwise. As even you pointed out, it's HIS view of things that will shape our world if he were to gain control over it. Not many of us are too keen on being lorded-over by someone who claims to know better than we do, much less on the divine scale. You claimed the world would likely crumble if Zamorak were to reign, but it seems largely similar to the Fourth and Fifth Ages, with mortals creating the societies in which they live in, being free to do as they see fit. In the end, it's what the Godless strive for, and what nearly every other God now seems to support.

A Saradominist world will be a world for Saradominists by Saradominists, with Big Blue himself the ultimate authority. We don't need a divine God-King standing at the helm of the world. We've proven quite capable ourselves, for better or worse. When one draws the line in the sand, it's really only Saradomin who stands on the other side. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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14-Oct-2015 22:06:45

Hazeel

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@Kastor

It depends. Exiling could be considered ideal in some circumstances, because there's a sliver of hope that maybe being forced to rely on yourself would finally get a stubborn weakling to reach their potential or else get killed off by nature.

On the other hand, if you're in a society that includes vyres or werewolves, it would be better to execute the weak so that in death they can serve a purpose as food. If a weakling belongs to some species whose body has special properties, they're better off being dissected and harvested. There's necromancers too, who might like test subjects.

And there's always the possibility than an exile might just find another place to stay and leech. Really, if you just stop supporting weaklings they will die on their own naturally, but in an organized society that wants to be as efficient as possible, a proper execution could have so many benefits. Although I'd like to think the world would could invent better ways to dispose of weaklings in a manner to proves their weakness upon their deaths.

Death is natural, it is necessary, and it can be beneficial if we are open minded. Weaklings naturally die, but rather than just accepting it and allowing a burden to be lifted from our shoulders, we should embrace it and do whatever we can to make the most of their death (granted, I believe we should be fair, patient, and never excessive). Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

15-Oct-2015 00:04:01

Lianna98

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@Aterivus

I never said that Zamorakian society have virtually no chance of existing, just limited and could never rival that of current Saradominists'. We have packets of Zamorakians scattered around Gielinor ranging from the Mahjarrats themselves to the simplest cults. While conflicts generally don't erupt from within their ranks, they still generally remain divided, each splinter pursuing its own goals. Many of these said goals have timelessly antagonized almost every faction/race which had resulted to the common alienation that Zamorakians have regularly received, only ceasing hostilities, even brokering temporary alliances only at the most desperate situations like that of Tuska.

While as I have already said, Zamorakian logic holds its own merits and flaws but its followers still remain the main liability to their own cause. Looking over Gielinor's history both in reality and viewed in a scenario, Zamorakian-dominated societies with emphasis on those formerly held by Saradominists have fared worse in comparison and has become even more of an irony to itself.

You speak of elimination of centralized power? Drown in the irony as we glance upon New Varrock where everything had been centered to Zemouregal. Although it is an alternate reality, we could safely assume that it is what could have happened should Zem actually triumph over Varrock. Nobody else but him benefits from this society as almost everyone is virtually a zombie or 6 feet under. Said everyone would have been the mortals you have stated as the ones who were supposed to be "free to govern and themselves".

---cnp---

They make me shiiiaaaiiine!

16-Oct-2015 21:17:42

Lianna98

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Place Hallowland beside the present-day Morytania. Even with the former's general lack of lore considered, I don't see how it could be worse than the rotting swampy wastes of the latter when in fact it was described as one of the most prosperous kingdoms during the 2nd and early into the 3rd Age. Once again, let's glance at the supposed free mortals. Those that weren't turned were nothing more but subservient cattle. Once again, the vacuum of power is centered among House Drakan. Now I know Lord Drakan only associates himself as Zamorak's ally and not a full-fledged Zamorakian but this gives us an idea of what type of system Zamorakians are willing to support and to consider as allies.

General Khazard, while a fervent Zamorakian, rules his legions more out of bloodlust than anything else. His rule consists mainly of senseless slaughter of both enemies, innocents, and of his own. This is yet another example of yet another Zamorakian society...

Hazeel's rule of present-day Kandarin was described as cruel and brutal mirroring that of his protégé Khazard. It was only after the region's liberation did it actually start progressing into the Kandarin we know of today.

Now observe how Saradominist territories, from the ones as early as Hallowvale to the present ones in Misthalin or Asgarnia, follow an orderly system in which ensured that their society is not only stable and lasting but actually offers even the simplest citizen the freedom to pursue his/her own course in life provided he/she abides to the enforced laws. If these are not evidences enough that Saradominist society are proven to be better inclined to a progressing civilization, then I don't know what will. The system has been proven and is still proving itself. This is the pattern that is apparent to me. A proven one, not one yet to be.

---cnp---

They make me shiiiaaaiiine!

16-Oct-2015 21:19:34

Lianna98

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I have respect for Armadylean logic just the same. I would have sided with Armadyl had the circumstances been different but the main reason is indeed because of the lack of Armadyleans in Gielinor. We know he could run/guide an entire civilization as he had done with the aviansie of Abbinah but he just doesn't have that grip upon Gielinor which Saradomin on the other hand possesses in conjunction with already ruling other worlds.

The idea of leaving the mortals be, while grand and ambitious, is already something too far gone. The gods have already assimilated themselves into Gielinor and their respective followers whether they desire to or not. To leave everything to the mortals to this point would only leave Gielinor to its pre-6th Age. A state of a stagnating stalemate in contrary to what you would describe as what Zamorak's rule would be. The god-related conflicts will continue while new ones will arise so long as the factions stand. A higher governing power is needed to tip the scales and almost each of us have their own god for just that position.

For many Saradominists, having a god-king to rule over is already an expectation and by all means, it will be Saradomin and no other. In the end of the day, the lines were already drawn long ago and here we all are standing in our own sides with our respective gods.

@Hazeel

You speak in a perspective in which you are already a dominant body in your take of Zamorakian society. However, as you have strongly emphasized, the weak have little to no place. How can you, in all your confidence, be so certain you'd be at the top however? How can you be certain you can assert your position over others who would think similarly? Could you say the same if ever you were in the place of one who is defeated or betrayed by your own? Do you accept your fate that you are to perish and you've no choice in the matter simply because your society dictates it?

They make me shiiiaaaiiine!

16-Oct-2015 21:21:11 - Last edited on 16-Oct-2015 22:06:58 by Lianna98

Dec

2020

Aterivus

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@Lianna98

I certainly don't disagree on many of your points, and I do not, in fact, take much issue with how many of the modern Saradominist societies are run. I suppose where you and I may differ is that I attribute their success more to the mortals who established them rather than being some paragon of the Saradominist philosophy. Particularly in cases where such establishments were far-less based on religion and philosophy, and simply built out of necessity . Asgarnia is some such example.

Asgarnia, once a cluster of small settlements and tribes whom banded together to establish safety and stability in harsh and unforgiving times, is a testament to the idea of what can be accomplished even in our darkest hours. This was not a philosophy-fueled establishment, nor even particularly religious - it was humans finding a way to re-connect with, well...humanity. Sure, political turmoil with religious undertones have certainly made it's way through the area now, and this isn't the place for me to bring up what sparked such turmoil (i.e. motives by both sides, aftermath of Operation: Phoenix, etc.). Zamorakians had just the hand in its making, just as Saradominists; and yet, all the same, the point is less about either side practicing a philosophy or adhering to an ideology, and more about humans doing something to better their conditions all around . Ultimately, I see such successful societies as more an attribution to the strength of mortals than the governance of Saradominism - particularly that they were never solely Saradominist, until very recently in Gielinorian history. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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16-Oct-2015 22:41:50

Dec

2020

Aterivus

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I simply don't understand how anyone can see pre-Sixth Age as "a state of a stagnating stalemate", as you put it. This was a time of some of our world's greatest achievements, and the rise of human dominance against all odds and obstacles. I hold great respect for those who were capable of uplifting their standing in the world despite mostly being looked down upon as worthless specks on the cosmological scale.

Now, interestingly enough, I am Zamorakian and I have no qualms in saying that I despise how several Zamorakians have governed their shares of the world. I have no need to "drown in the irony" of such places as New Varrock or Morytania or your other examples. But I don't see the evils of these places as the fault of Zamorak's ideology, but more the fault of the villainous individuals who have let the notions of freedom die in order to sit on a throne. You may consider them still practitioners of the philosophy, but I'd say they're closing in on hypocrite territory; given the chance, I'd rarely hesitate to have taken their heads, destroy what they have established, and create a far more open society and march to a brighter day.

And yes, perhaps this is some proof of what Zamorak and his followers would consider for allies. Though I would say there is a point to be made that, as far as my interpretation of the philosophy goes, those who would still seek to rise up and remove these establishments out of a desire to create a better one that is fairer to its people could still be considered Zamorakian. Essentially, taking such individuals as allies and confidants is as much an act that Zamorak would support as he would the actions of individuals looking to remove them for a higher purpose. The takeaway from this is something we've known, and something Jagex intends for Zamorak - his faction is full of extremists and ill-intended individuals who have brought a fair share of negative connotations to the religion as a whole. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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16-Oct-2015 22:41:54

Dec

2020

Aterivus

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For what it's worth, don't be inclined to forget that questionable choices and allies have plagued other Gods and factions as well.

As I recall that Saradomin stood side-by-side with Bandos, claiming that Zamorak sought to have the world succumb to a cycle of endless war, yet willingly allied with the one being who openly did desire that . But I doubt you would agree that this is proof that Saradomin even remotely supported Bandos, it was purely a time when he needed allies and the luxury of choice was not available. Can you not envision the same for Zamorak? Many of his less-than-noble allies came from a time when he simply needed all the support he could muster. At the very least, I think it's irrational to see the association with such allies as proof of support of their actions. For any Zamorakian who does exercise the beliefs of the philosophy's core principles, it should make it difficult to swallow the actions of those who are not.

Just as I imagine the average Saradominist in Gielinor would not be so apt on what Sigmund was attempting to do with H.A.M., the actions of individuals like this don't need to serve as the proof of what the philosophy or its other practitioners would support. " All great changes are preceded by chaos. "

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16-Oct-2015 22:42:02

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