RuneScape Forum Archive | Tumeken and His 4 Facets

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said :
Nobody ever mentions Tumeken sacrificing himself outside of that Hallowe'en event, Fate of the Gods, and Kharshai's memory.

And? My point is that the sphinx isn't the most reliable source of information on this matter.

Beyond that, the sphinx's line is specifically that Amascut started destroying people in the last age or so. As that line is delivered in the 5th age, that would either refer to the last age (4th) or 'so' (the 3rd age). With the Zarosian-Menaphite war apparently having taken place very near to the end of the 2nd age, the 3rd age lines up perfectly with Amascut going nutty.

Wahisietel said :
Contradicted by Neite and the only example we actually have of reincarnation (Bob) working completely differently.

Neite's dialogue doesn't specify that Amascut turned them into cats, just that she cursed them to forever walk the world in her form, which could just as easily be a curse to prevent them from ever using magic to become human again. As for Bob, we really don't know how his reincarnation worked yet, just that he appears to have planned for it, so it's entirely possible that Icthlarin dealt with his reincarnation as well.

Wahisietel said :
This is the biggest issue - her version of events and Neite's version cannot be reconciled, and I'm inclined to consider Neite are more reliable source.

I'd say they can. Neite never specifies that they were human when they cursed Amascut. It is distinctly implied and I have no doubt that that is what was intended when it was written, but Jagex has the wiggle room to have them have performed the ritual after their reincarnation. And, as I said just above here, there's also a bit of wiggle room for what Amascut's curse on them actually did.

24-Mar-2017 20:50:12

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said :
The actual event itself ignores this lore completely by having Amascut as Lady Keli again.

Not exactly. Neite specifically mentions that any corporeal body she'd take would soon cast her out (Sumona is actually the more significant lore issue with this). Keeping in mind that the event occurred in the Under World and Amascut never physically interacted with anything, she didn't really need a physical form. Considering Amascut hates cats (and so probably isn't too fond of her own base form) and we foiled her plans while she was in the guise of Sumona/Jesmona, I think it makes perfect sense that she'd elect to utilize Lady Keli's visage (her most recent success) when presenting an incorporeal form.

Wahisietel said :
This is explained in the post-quest dialogue for Dealing with Scabaras with the Sophanem High Priest, go and check it out. It was also confirmed with Jmod statements a while back.

And we can't just classify that under the whole, 'mortals misunderstanding the exact nature of the Edicts' schtick as was the case in the Myreque Questline? I mean, he also admits earlier in the same train of thought that Icthlarin doesn't actually explain things to him. Heck, he later claims that Guthix's rules affect Amascut differently since she became the Devourer, which doesn't make sense based on how the Edicts actually worked.

24-Mar-2017 20:50:23

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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Original message details are unavailable.

And? My point is that the sphinx isn't the most reliable source of information on this matter.

Beyond that, the sphinx's line is specifically that Amascut started destroying people in the last age or so. As that line is delivered in the 5th age, that would either refer to the last age (4th) or 'so' (the 3rd age). With the Zarosian-Menaphite war apparently having taken place very near to the end of the 2nd age, the 3rd age lines up perfectly with Amascut going nutty.

My point is that lore from before Tumeken's sacrifice was a thing is obviously not going to reference it.The phrase "within the last age or so" would include the current age (5th), meaning it happened in the 5th or 4th.

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Neite's dialogue doesn't specify that Amascut turned them into cats, just that she cursed them to forever walk the world in her form, which could just as easily be a curse to prevent them from ever using magic to become human again. As for Bob, we really don't know how his reincarnation worked yet, just that he appears to have planned for it, so it's entirely possible that Icthlarin dealt with his reincarnation as well.

We know that Robert was reincarnated 2139 years after the fact, and that Bob has a completely different memories and personality to Robert, which is not the case with Neite/Ka.

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I'd say they can. Neite never specifies that they were human when they cursed Amascut. It is distinctly implied and I have no doubt that that is what was intended when it was written, but Jagex has the wiggle room to have them have performed the ritual after their reincarnation. And, as I said just above here, there's also a bit of wiggle room for what Amascut's curse on them actually did.

Neite's story says that she started destroying her own followers, and that HER LAST REMAINING FOLLOWERS cursed her. Amascut killing her followers and inexplicably not devouring the souls of a few of them so they get reincarnated makes no sense. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 02:26:59 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 02:28:44 by Wahisietel

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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Original message details are unavailable.
Not exactly. Neite specifically mentions that any corporeal body she'd take would soon cast her out (Sumona is actually the more significant lore issue with this). Keeping in mind that the event occurred in the Under World and Amascut never physically interacted with anything, she didn't really need a physical form. Considering Amascut hates cats (and so probably isn't too fond of her own base form) and we foiled her plans while she was in the guise of Sumona/Jesmona, I think it makes perfect sense that she'd elect to utilize Lady Keli's visage (her most recent success) when presenting an incorporeal form.

In-universe, no time has passed since Smoking Kills, so it still makes sense for her to take that form. There's nothing to indicate that Amascut is capable of taking any sort of non-physical form, or that the one in the event was, since all other living stuff in the underworld is mortal. Especially considering it's implied that her forms are a result of possession, and not truly her own.

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And we can't just classify that under the whole, 'mortals misunderstanding the exact nature of the Edicts' schtick as was the case in the Myreque Questline? I mean, he also admits earlier in the same train of thought that Icthlarin doesn't actually explain things to him. Heck, he later claims that Guthix's rules affect Amascut differently since she became the Devourer, which doesn't make sense based on how the Edicts actually worked.

Yeah, but Mod Rowley has stated that Amascut and Icthlarin WERE affected by the edicts (just not to the same extent as the other gods), so we should probably assume the High Priest's dialogue is based in some truth.

At any rate, we're getting super off-topic, and my main point was that there was no single event that led to Amascut suddenly becoming mentally unstable, and that it happened over time as a result of a combination of factors. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 02:29:39 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 02:35:06 by Wahisietel

HalloweenFox

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Summerleaf said :
In Sliske's book in Book of the God's it details the Khardian God's leading the Stern Judges. Idk if it includes the aspects, but I always assumed that it did. Also, I believe Senliten said something about them existing beforehand.

Edit: Nvmd lol. Wahi beat me there.

Sliske's book never specifies any of the 4. It just said 'Khardian Gods' which could also have been Tumeken, Elidinis, Icthlarin, or Amascut. It sounded like it was leaning more towards Icthlarin and Amascut specifically though, since it implied the gods it was referring to had been gone for a long time and needed to return, which happened in the next entry of the book.

As for the part about Senliten confirming their existence before Tumeken exploding, when exactly does she say that? A bunch of people have mentioned it but I'm having trouble finding a transcript of her dialogue that says that.

Assuming I'm just missing it, that would mean that Situation 1 is at the very least more likely than 2.

However, all this talk of inconsistencies among NPCs' accounts of the history of the desert gods and the fact that Senliten's word would really be the only confirmation we have so far that they existed beforehand is keeping me from dismissing Situation 2 altogether.

25-Mar-2017 09:37:04 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 09:43:55 by HalloweenFox

HalloweenFox

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Also on another note, where was Tumeken during the war? He only really seemed to get there at the very end of it.

And the fact that Elidinis is almost completely left out of lore up to this point despite supposedly being at least somewhat of a major influence is bugging me too. Where was she/what was she doing during all of this? (not expecting an answer for this one)

25-Mar-2017 09:46:26 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 09:47:41 by HalloweenFox

Ancient Drew

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He might have left Icthlarin and Amascut to look after the Kharidian Lands after 'creating' them, and was disappointed when he had to intervene.

Note that when gods that aren't Elders 'create' life, they actually take something that is already there and infuse it with their essence. Pretty much any god can do this, but only an Elder God can actually create life from nothing. And even then, they need anima as sustenance to do this.

As for Elidinis, she probably did the same and left Icthlarin and Amascut to do their thing, and it should also be noted that as mortals, they were a jackal and a lioness, both creatures which would have been indigenous to the Kharidian Lands before it became a desert. Back then, it was a jungle filled with monkeys and all other kinds of fauna and flora. Hell, it might even be possible that some of the Kharidian jungles had been separated from the main land and sent to the ocean before Tumeken burned the place down into a desert.

Elidinis is described as caring and providing resources, so she would have been like a calmer yet staunch version of Seren. She apparently struck up an alliance with Saradomin, the winning party of the God Wars, to better aid in the defence of their land. But once the Edicts had been placed, Elidinis was affected as well, and as such couldn't be there for the desert or to comfort Amascut who had been affected by Mah and witnessed her father blow himself up.

Meanwhile, Icthlarin had been running around herding souls to the afterlife after Tumeken blew up the desert, which would have made him even more busy in the Third Age. And Tumeken had apparently made up the 4 facets of himself after making the desert, and possibly the Kharid-ib, before sealing himself away according to a hopeful Icthlarin who wants his family back safe and sound. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

25-Mar-2017 10:28:02

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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HalloweenFox said :

However, all this talk of inconsistencies among NPCs' accounts of the history of the desert gods and the fact that Senliten's word would really be the only confirmation we have so far that they existed beforehand is keeping me from dismissing Situation 2 altogether.

We know that she died when the Mahjarrat were still serving Icthlarin (so pre-Tumeken KAPOW), and she mentions the facets multiple times, although mainly Scabaras and Apmeken. Her noticing that Apmeken and the desert monkeys are gone is what sets the events of Do No Evil into motion. She even has statues of the facets in her tomb. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

25-Mar-2017 13:01:32

Jan

2021

AesirWarrior

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Wahisietel said :
HalloweenFox said :

However, all this talk of inconsistencies among NPCs' accounts of the history of the desert gods and the fact that Senliten's word would really be the only confirmation we have so far that they existed beforehand is keeping me from dismissing Situation 2 altogether.

We know that she died when the Mahjarrat were still serving Icthlarin (so pre-Tumeken KAPOW), and she mentions the facets multiple times, although mainly Scabaras and Apmeken. Her noticing that Apmeken and the desert monkeys are gone is what sets the events of Do No Evil into motion. She even has statues of the facets in her tomb.

Not to mention that while she was alive the Kharidian wasn't a desert, and we all know what caused the creation of the desert. -

I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?

- We call it being a hero.

26-Mar-2017 16:13:02

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

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HalloweenFox said :

Sliske's book never specifies any of the 4. It just said 'Khardian Gods' which could also have been Tumeken, Elidinis, Icthlarin, or Amascut. It sounded like it was leaning more towards Icthlarin and Amascut specifically though, since it implied the gods it was referring to had been gone for a long time and needed to return, which happened in the next entry of the book.

As for the part about Senliten confirming their existence before Tumeken exploding, when exactly does she say that? A bunch of people have mentioned it but I'm having trouble finding a transcript of her dialogue that says that.

I said Assumed . Learn words.

Also, I don't think Senliten actually said anything, per se, however considering that she existed BEFORE Tumekin's suicide, and that there are statues of the facets in her tomb, as well as saying that Amascut and Scabaras , were not as hostile as they are now... Meaning that Scabaras existed in her time... Keep in mind that when we brought her back, she was surprised that the jungles were gone, and everything was desert... Something that happened when Tumekin went boom-boom.

Edit: Again, Wahi beat me to it...

27-Mar-2017 04:03:23 - Last edited on 27-Mar-2017 04:04:10 by Summerleaf

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Tumeken and His 4 Facets