RuneScape Forum Archive | Tumeken and His 4 Facets

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said :
Amascut and the 4 Facets have to have been on relatively friendly terms at the end of the Fourth Age - otherwise Guthix would have likely banished her (and probably Icthlarin too by extension, since there'd be nobody to balance him). From Neite we know that for a time she had followers that actually tolerated and agreed with her "destruction", so presumably there was a period of time where she was advocating for destruction but hadn't turned on her followers and the demigods yet.

From Ka:

Ka: The priestesses of Amascut's clergy, such as Neite and I, returned to Gielinor after being reincarnated. We were not seeking revenge, but Amascut was on a destructive rampage. We knew she had to be stopped. We went to the ruins of our most sacred temple. There amongst the rubble we unearthed the altar, and poured all of our combined power into a ritual. Amascut's screams of anger and pain could be heard across the barren Kharid, as we afflicted her with the curse she still bears today. Our aim was to bind her to the Kharidian desert and prevent anyone from making the mistake of following her again. That way we would limit the amount of havoc she could wreak.

And Neite openly admits that there was a time during which Amascut was destroying people, and her clergy tolerated it. It wasn't until Amascut turned her efforts to destroy on her own followers and temples that her followers did anything.

Methinks Guthix's unwillingness to banish the lesser members of the pantheon is more likely to do with Amascut being cursed to the Desert (such that he couldn't banish her) than them being on good terms (he even was going to banish Seren, and they were on the best of terms).

23-Mar-2017 22:51:43 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 22:53:41 by Hguoh

Hguoh

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Note: Ka recounts the time during which Amascut had gone to Freneskae as well as her return. This places the time period during which her followers tolerated Amascut's destruction back in the 2nd age or early 3rd age.

23-Mar-2017 23:11:40

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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Like I said, disregard that Hallowe'en event, it contradicts so much stuff that's actually permanent content that it's not worth reconciling. Pretty much everything Ka says is contradicted by other stuff.

From what is currently in the game, it is indicated that Amascut only really started her plans relatively recently.

Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 00:26:44 - Last edited on 24-Mar-2017 00:31:21 by Wahisietel

Maiden China

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Wahisietel said :
Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age. where did you find that?

from what I understood, Guthix created the shield and then went after the gods one by one to put them on the other side of it... and the ones that stayed on this side were pretty much fine Carn

24-Mar-2017 02:33:01

Hguoh

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Wahisietel said :
Like I said, disregard that Hallowe'en event, it contradicts so much stuff that's actually permanent content that it's not worth reconciling. Pretty much everything Ka says is contradicted by other stuff.

Her description of what was happening in and at the event was accurate.

She claims that the Zarosian-Menaphite war happened near the end of the 2nd age and that the war took its toll on the people of the land. Now, that's more than a bit later than I would've placed the time frame of the war (I would have thought it'd have happened toward the middle of the age), but it doesn't outright conflict with any lore I am aware of.

She claims that Icthlarin and Amascut left the world for a period of time and returned with the Mahjarrat who turned the tide of the war for a time. This is just a retelling of preexisting lore.

She claims that the Mahjarrat betrayed them. This resulted in the war worsening for them once again, driving Tumeken to sacrifice himself and turn the land into desert. Again, just a reltelling of existing lore.

She claims that Amascut soon after destroyed 'everything she once stood for.' As far as I am aware, the only preexisting lore this directly contradicts is the dialogue from the sphinx who was already contradicted by Tumeken having sacrificed himself.

She claims that Icthlarin offered them rebirth in the form of cats. I can't recall any lore this contradicts.

She claims that Amascut was in charge of reincarnation, but Icthlarin took over. The only lore this would seem to contradict is Senliten's dialogue on reincarnation. However, one can easily attribute the discrepancy as a difference between belief and reality, and the fact that Icthlarin was already in charge of rebirth back then tells you Amascut had already begun shirking her duties.

24-Mar-2017 10:04:45

Hguoh

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She says that reincarnation has become less common since Icthlarin took over the job, and I know of no lore that contradicts that.

She says that Amascut was in charge of 'destroying the darkest, most evil of souls,' and that few mortals knew of that. Again, I know of no lore that contradicts this.

She says that Amascut began her descent into madness after Tumeken's sacrifice. This is consistent with Senliten's dialogue about Icthlarin being in charge of reincarnation.

She claims that the curse laid on Amascut occurred after the members of Amascut's clergy had reincarnated. This seems to be contradicted by Neite's dialogue claiming that Amascut cursed them to forever walk Runescape in her form. However, this could just as easily refer to Amascut preventing them from assuming any other form than a cat, which would fit with Ka's description of events.

Then she describes what the curse does. The only difference between her and Neite's dialogues on this point is that Neite assumes the curse is still working (Amascut's deeds being remembered while Amascut herself remains forgotten and needing to use mind control to possess followers) while Ka assumes the curse has weakened since they cast it (allowing Amascut to 'coerce' mortals into her service).

24-Mar-2017 10:24:04

Hguoh

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Maiden China said :
Wahisietel said :
Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age. where did you find that?

from what I understood, Guthix created the shield and then went after the gods one by one to put them on the other side of it... and the ones that stayed on this side were pretty much fine

Also this. V's description of how the Edicts work (which Guthix's confrontation of Bandos seems to support) describes it as essentially being Guthix's personal ban list for Gods on Gielinor. This would mean that as long as Guthix didn't explicitly cast the minor desert gods out, they'd have no issue with the Edicts unless they personally wanted to honor Guthix's intentions (which would explain why someone like Icthlarin would stay withdrawn from humans, while Amascut wouldn't particularly care).

24-Mar-2017 10:28:21

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'll address what I can.

Original message details are unavailable.

She claims that Amascut soon after destroyed 'everything she once stood for.' As far as I am aware, the only preexisting lore this directly contradicts is the dialogue from the sphinx who was already contradicted by Tumeken having sacrificed himself.

Nobody ever mentions Tumeken sacrificing himself outside of that Hallowe'en event, Fate of the Gods, and Kharshai's memory.

Original message details are unavailable.
She claims that Icthlarin offered them rebirth in the form of cats. I can't recall any lore this contradicts.

Contradicted by Neite and the only example we actually have of reincarnation (Bob) working completely differently.

Original message details are unavailable.
She claims that the curse laid on Amascut occurred after the members of Amascut's clergy had reincarnated. This seems to be contradicted by Neite's dialogue claiming that Amascut cursed them to forever walk Runescape in her form. However, this could just as easily refer to Amascut preventing them from assuming any other form than a cat, which would fit with Ka's description of events.

This is the biggest issue - her version of events and Neite's version cannot be reconciled, and I'm inclined to consider Neite are more reliable source.

Original message details are unavailable.
Then she describes what the curse does. The only difference between her and Neite's dialogues on this point is that Neite assumes the curse is still working (Amascut's deeds being remembered while Amascut herself remains forgotten and needing to use mind control to possess followers) while Ka assumes the curse has weakened since they cast it (allowing Amascut to 'coerce' mortals into her service).

The actual event itself ignores this lore completely by having Amascut as Lady Keli again. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 13:13:32

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Maiden China said :
Wahisietel said :
Worth pointing out that the lesser desert gods (including Amascut and Icthlarin) actually were affected by the Edicts, just not to the same extent as the other gods. It's implied that they're unable to interact with Gielinor too much or ruin will befall them. Hence why Icthlarin was pretty much confining himself to the underworld until the Sixth Age. where did you find that?

from what I understood, Guthix created the shield and then went after the gods one by one to put them on the other side of it... and the ones that stayed on this side were pretty much fine

Also this. V's description of how the Edicts work (which Guthix's confrontation of Bandos seems to support) describes it as essentially being Guthix's personal ban list for Gods on Gielinor. This would mean that as long as Guthix didn't explicitly cast the minor desert gods out, they'd have no issue with the Edicts unless they personally wanted to honor Guthix's intentions (which would explain why someone like Icthlarin would stay withdrawn from humans, while Amascut wouldn't particularly care).

This is explained in the post-quest dialogue for Dealing with Scabaras with the Sophanem High Priest, go and check it out. It was also confirmed with Jmod statements a while back. You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

24-Mar-2017 13:14:45

May

2022

Rifleavenger

Posts: 1,381 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Wahisietel said :
Original message details are unavailable.

She claims that Amascut soon after destroyed 'everything she once stood for.' As far as I am aware, the only preexisting lore this directly contradicts is the dialogue from the sphinx who was already contradicted by Tumeken having sacrificed himself.

Nobody ever mentions Tumeken sacrificing himself outside of that Hallowe'en event, Fate of the Gods, and Kharshai's memory. Not sure how this addresses the point. Are you claiming that Tumeken didn't sacrifice himself and this proves Ka's account is unreliable?

Wahisietel said :
This is the biggest issue - her version of events and Neite's version cannot be reconciled, and I'm inclined to consider Neite are more reliable source.

In my view, the sad fact is that Jagex loves them some retcons. I'm inclined to weight things more heavily towards recent content as a result.

24-Mar-2017 15:20:55 - Last edited on 24-Mar-2017 15:22:19 by Rifleavenger

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Tumeken and His 4 Facets