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Second Age, Zarosian Humans

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Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Got some tweets from Mod Jack. (His tweets are in gold, mine are white)


Mod Jack ‏@JagexJack 5h5 hours ago
@Noctiseus Almost no vertical mobility, I expect. Notable exceptions, but generally classes would be pretty fixed.



Noct ‏@Noctiseus 18 Dec 2015
@JagexJack Hi, was the economy and trading systems within the Zarosian Empire controlled, and run by the state/Zaros... 1/2

Noct ‏@Noctiseus 18 Dec 2015
@JagexJack or was it run by private sectors (Capitalism).

Also Happy Holidays :D

Mod Jack ‏@JagexJack 5h5 hours ago
@Noctiseus Probably a mixture of both. Public services built by the church (and paid with heavy taxes/tithes). This might include food.

04-Jan-2016 16:24:48

Svigris

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Well that does mean we can directly blame the church for the starvation of the people of Sennestin. If they were in charge of food distribution they clearly didn't do their job. As well they can't blame lack of funding they clearly had it building elaborate temples to a God who couldn't really care less about public image. Corruption is really the only thing to blame here and it kinda means we can blame a certain someone for all many of the blights of Sennestin.

08-Jan-2016 04:05:05

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Svigris said :
Well that does mean we can directly blame the church for the starvation of the people of Sennestin. If they were in charge of food distribution they clearly didn't do their job. As well they can't blame lack of funding they clearly had it building elaborate temples to a God who couldn't really care less about public image. Corruption is really the only thing to blame here and it kinda means we can blame a certain someone for all many of the blights of Sennestin.

Okay, let's just not use the word blame. Blame and guilt have so much double standards and inconsistencies throughout far too many mediums for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, it ends up devolving into infinite regress.

Though I'm curious about where you got the idea that the people of Sennestin were starving. The vampyre's had very specific laws about their feeding, and the demon's were if anything overfed lol. As far as I know, the only members of the empire that actually ate what we call food was the humans and I don't believe it is stated anywhere that there was wide spread starvation. Maybe for the mentally ill, or the homeless? (Not that there was lots of homeless due to demons eating them, so we cannot call it a wide spread problem) But I cannot recall whether or not it was said anywhere that they were. That's more of a problem found in the Saradominist empire, where they didn't have the superior agriculture technology.

The church definitely played their part in making life in the empire the way it was though, don't get me wrong. I do wonder what the extent of Azzandra's knowledge of the corruption in the empire was. As head of the church, and as a member of a race that can pretty much read minds, he should have known most of what was going on, but then again he's delusional in many circumstances so it's possible he blocked it out, and truly was unaware.

08-Jan-2016 05:28:35 - Last edited on 08-Jan-2016 05:30:31 by Cthris

Pupppy

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I think mod jack once said something like there was a bit of overworking/starvation on the farms of the empire, but people that worked in the cities were well-fed and even had education (except for the homeless, but I think those were a case of being unwilling to work; or inapt either due to physical/mental restraints; or perhaps lack of necessary skills if they had migrated from the poor countryside)


Oh, oh, and I think that a major problem in the Church was the ambition of their officials rather than corruption, since I assume most were too loyal to Zaros to do that.

The problem of their ambition, to develop on what you said, is that they wanted to solidify their name in society by building the greatest temples the Empire had seen yet, instead of being a bit more smart and spend such money on actually helping the population with food and other cares (which wouldn't really gain their any glory whatsoever).

08-Jan-2016 18:01:56 - Last edited on 08-Jan-2016 18:06:10 by Pupppy

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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I've seen quotes for overworking, and education, but I have never seen one about starvation. If he ever did say it, it wasn't on the forums, or anytime recently on twitter. I suspect this is a case of wrongful memory association. Often when we think of impoverished people, we think starvation, linking those two in memory.

I don't think it would even make sense for there to be widespread starvation among the working class.

Original message details are unavailable.


Late in the Second Age, when Senntisten was at its height of power and influence, the church was gradually finding its role changing. The church was responsible for culture, ideology and civil government within the boundaries of the empire, but with culture well-established and the population growing, the demands of civil government took more and more of its time. Zaros had made it clear that the sheer size of the human population was a priority to him, and as such healthcare became more and more of a priority. Although water and hygiene were well understood, the problem of lunacy was becoming a larger scale problem as the population expanded and society became less personal.


If health care was a big priority in the empire, then wouldn't food distribution also be a big priority? Like you said, the Church was very ambitious, they would want to maximize productivity, and starving workers are not very productive, so I cannot see the church making the rational choice to allow their working class to starve.

We do have accounts of corruption in the Church, even Zamorak (The most corrupt individual within the empire) made note of it. But typically ambition and corruption go hand in hand. Personally I think the best way to have made a name for yourself in the empire was to please Zaros. Zaros wasn't about aesthetic, he was about efficiency and productivity. So I disagree that the Church's ambition caused it to squander resources on frivolousness things instead of feeding workers.

08-Jan-2016 18:40:16 - Last edited on 08-Jan-2016 18:49:26 by Cthris

Pupppy

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Original message details are unavailable.
I think the best way to have made a name for yourself in the empire was to please Zaros. Zaros wasn't about aesthetic, he was about efficiency and productivity.

Yes, I think that is true in the early ages of the Empire, when Zaros was around and his domain was ever expanding.

But, as we know, at some point he began to visit and influence his subjects less and less, on the hopes that his mahjarrat disciples could inherit all his values and philosophies.

But true is, while some did share his beliefs, many did not, and I think it is very likely that the principles of the society were changing, in which now you had to do some kind of work to attract and gain the favor of these new heads.

Since I don't believe many of these new heads had all the patience or deep wisdom that Zaros had to judge the worthiness of his subjects, I think some of them completely mutated the rules to reward only what they had real interest on. *looks at sliske*

08-Jan-2016 20:05:43 - Last edited on 08-Jan-2016 20:13:20 by Pupppy

Pupppy

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Ohh, and lets not forget about the Cardinals, featured in those comics in Empty Throne and which were stated to be chosen by voting of the population (idk how restrict were the rights to vote there, but they were open enough to have the most of the cardinals be chosen as humans, due to the vast human majority of voters).

They are literally freaking politics! To gain/maintain their positions, they had to do actions that gained them wide fame and respect to be voted on. While the general famine and illness of a population could never be attributed to a single element of the Church, surely any big conquest of war, or marvel of architecture could indeed be attributed to a single visionary, if given the right propaganda methods ;)



ps: yes I don't remember either of a jmod mentioning hunger was a real thing in the zarosian empire, I just assume that could of become a problem in the late stages of it, when the watchful eyes of Zaros were moving away...

08-Jan-2016 20:05:53 - Last edited on 08-Jan-2016 20:15:34 by Pupppy

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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I just can't help but disagree. Like Mod Jack said, health care was a growing priority, meaning that it became an even bigger deal as time went on, despite Zaros' continued lack of involvement.

In my mind, the empire runs with ruthless efficiency, run through a regime of fear. I've always reckoned that if a politician did not achieve what they were supposed to achieve, they could face dire consequences, including death. So say food distribution was low, the Cardinal, or whomever was in charge would be looking at a hefty punishment. This would provide a Cardinal the incentive to do whatever it takes to distribute the food, even if say it came at the cost of using the mentally ill as slave labor.


Regardless, we do have one account of a human who tried to make a name for themselves using architecture. Remember Viggora? He was mocked, and mocked for his attempts. So I get the feeling that if one wants respect, architecture is not the way to go.

08-Jan-2016 20:22:20

Pupppy

Pupppy

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Well Viggora was a said to be a warrior of some tribe around; I'd trust a wise and well-studied expert from the capital could do a much better job - at least they'd make a structure did not slowly sink on the ground :P


But err, how can you believe that "the empire runs with ruthless efficiency" if you do accept the accounts which state that corruption was running wild inside it?

I'd guess that they'd only try to do enough to look ruthlessly efficient, using propaganda and fear as tools to make everybody believe their "facts", and using of bribery to buy the most troublesome potential opposition, if not assassinations.

The point is, when politics are in charge, nothing ever goes perfectly as it was intended to... but they make sure to make it look like it does.

08-Jan-2016 20:35:43

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