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Second Age, Zarosian Humans

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Prime Axiom

Prime Axiom

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The large majority of your thread is speculation, and there is very little concrete evidence. For example, Athankos' memory also states:

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Through the church Zaros taught the empire many secrets of agriculture and industry and architecture, and Senntisten was always the first beneficiary of each advance. Great halls and towers and aqueducts sprang up over the city and the lands around were filled with efficient, irrigated fields, mills, jennies and straight, well-maintained roads.
The population continued to rise uncontrollably and the proportion that belonged to the clergy or the military fell and fell. More and more so, the humans devoted themselves to the provision of luxury and services for each other. The city had become its own purpose, not just an administrative centre but a great living creature in the centre of the empire.
I asked Azzanadra about this, and he told me that Zaros seemed pleased by it, not a sentiment we associated with our lord. When I stood on the walls of the Basilica at night and looked out over the city, though, I felt exactly the same way.

This sounds to me as if there was an explosion of wealth, trade, and technology as opposed to strict dictation of fear. The human population grew exponentially, and the military and church was losing is grasp on the population. Moreover, the population of Senntisten were interested in luxury and services to each other. Ei. goods and services.

Also, the beginning of Akthankos' memory also states that Senntisten was a primitive settlement ruled by a god with limited intellect. Zaros introduced technology, wealth, and civilization itself to Senntisten.

08-Jun-2015 01:20:34 - Last edited on 08-Jun-2015 01:49:14 by Prime Axiom

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Zaros has used fear to get what he wants since the beginning of the empire.

The arrival of thousands of demons, and the torture and imprisonment of their god, so intimidated the people of Senntisten that they didn't even try to fight. They bowed down in worship of their new ruler.

I don't see it as a side effect. I think it was his intention. Zaro wanted unification, what unifies people better than fear. Take the Tuska event as testament to that :)

We know Zaros did not start wars. It's believed he used his massive army to intimidate lesser nations into following him, rather then be wiped out. Yes it's pure speculation, but seeing how well it turned out for Zaros the first time, why would he try a new method. It's not like he has a sense of morality to tell him its the wrong thing to do.

I also suggest you read Twice Burnt, it is a lore story created by Jagex. See how Zaros uses the threat of death to keep Pe*our in line. It it very good, you will certainly enjoy it. My favorite part is how Zamorak deduces that Zaros knew all along, and managed to predict that such an adventure would allow Char to reach her potential.

Zaros wasn't always known as the empty lord, he only started becoming called that after Tumneken's explosion, which was most likely near the later end of the second age.

Even then, very close to his betrayal, he was still launching missions and monitoring his kingdom. This is outlined in Twice Burnt. He never got the chance to give power to Azzandra or Zamorak. Zaros was aware of what was happening in his kingdom, and he utilized it.

Like I said to Matt, if you continue to disagree, than let us agree to disagree :)


Edit- you radically edited your post lol. Anyways I addressed all that. I made it clear how economically well off the Zarosian humans were compared to the other nation. How they had way more technology, access to education etc. That doesn't rule out that the empire was run by fear.

08-Jun-2015 01:46:10 - Last edited on 08-Jun-2015 01:53:08 by Cthris

Prime Axiom

Prime Axiom

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You are cherry picking out of context:

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Senntisten was the centre of the empire. I spent far less time there than some of my lazier kin, but between campaigns I had the opportunity to witness its fits of growth as it spread across the land. In the time before Zaros, at the dawn of the Second Age, Senntisten was a primitive human settlement much like any of the others that dotted Gielinor. It and the villages around it were ruled over by Loarnab, a many-headed god of limited intellect but tremendous might. Zaros's legions trapped Loarnab and Zaros used his magicks to twist it into a living power source for his forces. The arrival of thousands of demons, and the torture and imprisonment of their god, so intimidated the people of Senntisten that they didn't even try to fight. They bowed down in worship of their new ruler.

Senntisten was a primitive tribe, ruled by a beast god. If you read the lore regarding the Codex Ultimatum, Zaros' demon army was actually getting slaughtered by Loarnab. It was Zaros himself that subdued Loarnab. Moreover, the humans surrendered to Zaros' supremacy over loarnab, not necessarily over the threat of violence (we have no reason to believe Zaros threatened them). Here's what the Codex Ultimatus had to say on Loarnab:

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We arrived in a region that was ruled over by (though it would perhaps be more accurate to say terrorised by) a beast that the local tribes had named Loarnab. The locals paid tribute to it by way of sacrifice, in hopes of keeping it appeased, but they were only providing it with a feeding trough. Like a stray virius, feed it once and it will harass you forever more. They worshipped it like a god, and while it is true that the beast had divine power, it was still just a beast - albeit one with awareness of and purpose in its actions.

08-Jun-2015 01:57:08

Prime Axiom

Prime Axiom

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The problem is that I cannot fit the quotes that I want because of the 2000 character limit, and
I did not realize I edited my post as opposed to added a new one (which I intended to do).

Again, here's what Ariane has to say on the reference to the dread-lord.
Original message details are unavailable.
It looks like you've discovered a new god. I've been hunting around for references to this 'Zaros'. There are a few, but not many. It's as if the other gods tried to remove all references from him. Information is the key. I'm not going to tremble just because a piece of old stone tells me to. I hope we can find more objective information about Zaros in the future.

We've had no real evidence that Zaros was sitting in his thrown thinking up ways to intimidate his subjects like you would have us believe. Could he have possibly intimidated enemy armies into surrendering? Sure. But that's a world apart from intimidating his own subjects, and its certainly better than actually going to war. We have no evidence to suggest that was ever the case.

08-Jun-2015 02:04:47 - Last edited on 08-Jun-2015 02:09:34 by Prime Axiom

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Sorry for the late response. I was dealing with a lot of computer issues.

I think I need to clear up some stuff. I never said that Zaros went around thinking up ways to scare his subjects. I'm saying he utilized it to his advantage, both in regards to his subjects and to his enemies so that he could more effectively conquer the world.

By summoning thousands of demons after Loarnab had died, he would undoubtedly know the sennistiens would be so scared that they would not fight him and would be willing to do what ever he wanted out of fear.

We do have a few cases where his subjects are terrified of him, and as a result do what he asks. The best one I have already mentioned*****our.

Perjour. Fool as you are, you fear nothing more than the wrath of Zaros Zamorak

The fact that he was called the Dread Lord by his own citizens should be enough of a testament to that. (The fact that it's obscure is irrelevant since all lore about Zaros is supposed to be obscure) This proves that his own citizens were scared of him. We have an example of where Zaros took advantage of their fear for his own benefit. We know he used it to keep Pe*our and everyone around him in line out of fear of what Zaros would do to them.

So no I think you are very wrong in thinking that Zaros did not knowingly intimidate his citizens to make sure his kingdom ran effectively. The fact that everyone in the empire lived in fear of someone else is entirely Zaros fault, as that is how he ran his lands. (He made the laws, he picked the police, he spied on his citizens, he knew what was going on, and up until the very end, he did not realize his mistakes)

12-Jun-2015 14:00:45

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Cthris said :
By summoning thousands of demons after Loarnab had died, he would undoubtedly know the sennistiens would be so scared that they would not fight him and would be willing to do what ever he wanted out of fear.

Couple of important things:

1) Zaros didn't summon his demons before starting to kill Loarnab due to the significant power it would take to do so.

2) Zaros killed Loarnab by summoning his demons as shown by each head turning to stone with each legion (fueling the transfer between worlds with Loarnab's power).

3) Why would Zaros think that the demons would scare anybody. Remember, they were the first race he ever met. To him, they'd be normal and by no means imposing.

I'm not saying Zaros never used intimidation and fear to rule his people, but I don't think he intentionally did this at Senntisten. It just so happened to be a side effect to his efforts to get his armies to Gielinor.

12-Jun-2015 19:06:23 - Last edited on 12-Jun-2015 19:07:17 by Hguoh

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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Those are some good points Hgouh

To answer number three. Firstly I'm not sure whether the humans were scared of the demons as individual scary "things" or the fact that there were thousands of them. I think I would be pretty scared and complacent if thousands of humans came to my house. We all would I am guessing. That being said, I would think that Zaros would know what is scary to people and what is not. He has for sure seen the interactions between the Avernics and the Cthonians. Heard the tales of the battles between the Infernals and the Cthonians. Witnesses the strife between the predator, and the prey races in Vamp**ium. He visited countless worlds on his long journey to gielinor, and mentions how he has seen Gods interacting with mortals. He probably had seen a few human worlds too, thanks to Saradomin spreading them about.

He also probably observed the sennistiens for quite awhile before his attack, he's not dumb, and we know he did this before approaching the dragon riders. It's also not like he just randomly stumbled upon the only god that could summon his 12 legions, so I'm pretty confident that he was aware of how easily humans were intimidated, and how these humans would pretty much do whatever a fearsome deity wanted, even to give it sacrifices.

To me, Zaros knew that this would happen. He probably looked at all the options, realized that by killing Loarnab, he could: summon all his demons without loosing much power, unite some humans, and get some land. His end game wasn't to scare the humans, it just was a side effect that he accounted for and took advantage of.

12-Jun-2015 20:18:40

Svigris

Svigris

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Seeing how humans are described as "the rats of the universe" I suspect Zaros had probably encountered a few human colonies before coming to Gilenor. So I'm pretty sure Kastor has solid points saying that Zaros knew exactly what would happen when Zaros summoned demonic legions right in front of large human populous. Killing their former god also helps in the whole awe inspiring bit.

12-Jun-2015 20:51:57

Lord Pyro I
Nov Member 2018

Lord Pyro I

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"I didn't start wars"
Of all the things in Zaros's speech, this I find hardest to swallow (note its been confirmed by the mod's that anything and everything he said may have been a lie).

It is possible that under some loose interpretation this is true, but it is fair to wonder why these wars started.
It is not unreasonable to imagine this came about because these people were afraid of Zaros's expansionist outlook.
And it is really confusing why he could not make peace after it was clear fighting him was a bad idea.

Because of this and other points I can draw one conclusion that isn't really too much supposition.

Either
1. Zaros is unaware of the fear he and his empire generated.
Or
2. Zaros didn't care about/wanted the fear he caused

To be honest at this stage I'm not to bothered which is the case, we are either dealing with an evil entity or a monster born of divine energy and incapable of understanding humans, the embodiment of what is most feared by the godless. "The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

01-Jul-2015 02:11:16

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