RuneScape Forum Archive | We made us World Guardian?

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The only remaining issue would be that its possible that the traveler between the two universes would cause a third universe to be created through the destruction of the universe that the time traveler wanted to visit.

Though perhaps not, it's widely theorized in string theory that gravity is able to effect subsequent universes and not cause their destruction, so perhaps not.

(Yes people, I avoided the issue of quantum mechanics not following cause and effect, and yes that is true, on the quantum level, units don't follow cause and effect. This would cause varying differences on the fundamental equation depending on how many subsequent events there are in the universe. It doesn't prevent any of what I said from being untrue, it just throws in a monkey wrench that its quite possible that in every moment that passes more and more universes are being made and destroyed.)

One thing to keep in mind Sep is that the universe we visited in DoD was not one where the world guardian didnt exist but one where we, the adventure didn't exist. That would mean our birth is the result of time traveling...

28-Jun-2016 14:58:42

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Baxtorian said :
Not sure if I caught it all right but I'll explain the way I see it.

The 2 quests are actually inconsistent when it comes to how time travel works. Yes, Making History did have us alter the world, whether it did create a new one or not, it doesn't really matter.
However, in TLW, our trip to the past changed nothing - we had already been there long before we left to get to that point.

My main point is Jagex didn't define time travel better than world's best scientists did

Meeting History's time travel was inconsistent in and of itself.

We could change certain events: getting the fruit trees to survive, curing Sarah, helping Laura travel, and 'finding' Laura's brooch.

However, there were also events we couldn't change and had to have occurred before the initial trip back since they only happened due to our influence: naming Herblore, being spotted by Haluned (resulting in the Enchanted Key's creation), and the foundation of the Wizard's Guild (and the naming of Fire Strike since Jack only actually fully took up magic after we fixed the trees).

It appears Jagex has taken up the 'Dr. Who' school of time travel thought (you can change certain small things, but everything overall will generally remain the same).

28-Jun-2016 19:38:08

Dec

2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Cthris said :
One thing to keep in mind Sep is that the universe we visited in DoD was not one where the world guardian didnt exist but one where we, the adventure didn't exist. That would mean our birth is the result of time traveling... Or the fact that we never were born is the result of time travel... A

World Guardian

must learn to find

Balance

in themselves.
Only then can they

Control

themselves and forge their own

Fate .

29-Jun-2016 05:02:19

Dec

2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Sepulchre said :
Cthris said :
One thing to keep in mind Sep is that the universe we visited in DoD was not one where the world guardian didnt exist but one where we, the adventure didn't exist. That would mean our birth is the result of time traveling... Or the fact that we never were born is the result of time travel... Just thought of this but, maybe Dimension of Disaster is actually the original world we came from, and after we left the world changed to become like we never existed because of... time travel shenanigans. A

World Guardian

must learn to find

Balance

in themselves.
Only then can they

Control

themselves and forge their own

Fate .

30-Jun-2016 06:10:45

Aug

2008

Cybernet377

Posts: 2,725 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Sepulchre said :
Sepulchre said :
Cthris said :
One thing to keep in mind Sep is that the universe we visited in DoD was not one where the world guardian didnt exist but one where we, the adventure didn't exist. That would mean our birth is the result of time traveling... Or the fact that we never were born is the result of time travel... Just thought of this but, maybe Dimension of Disaster is actually the original world we came from, and after we left the world changed to become like we never existed because of... time travel shenanigans.

That seems inconsistent with the Ashdale tutorial suggesting that the player either was born there lived a sizable amount of time there, at least long enough to form seemingly close bonds to the population and to have a childhood friend of sorts.

It's entirely possible (and probably more likely) that in DoD, the player was never singled out by Guthix and Death as someone to be protected from death due to our future actions, and was eaten by Crassians or some other ignoble death.

30-Jun-2016 14:52:55

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

That would make things a lot more complicated if true.

You have to keep in mind that in order for this theory to work, there would have to be both an alpha universe and presumably an alpha adventurer, along with beta universes with beta adventurers. What I mean by this is that there would originally be a universe that had not experienced time travel, along with universes that have been formed through the results of time travel, or inter universe travel. Also keep in mind that all universes exist within the same moment, even though one might have been destroyed to create the other. This means that events between the two don't follow a linear path, and that a universe can be destroyed multiple times throughout the course of its equation.

The alpha universe can create beta universes in two ways. Invent time travel and have something go back and change time, thus destroying the universe equation and creating a beta, or have a being from a beta universe, (let's call it a beta jumper) enter it and thus destroy it into a beta universe (Technically a beta jumper could actually create it's origin universe by entering the alpha universe and destroying it into the beta universe that created it, trippy eh?)

But how does all of this relate back to how your theory complicates the matter?

In our universe we are chosen by guthix because of time travel. If every time travel creates a new universe, than our player character was technically not the one to causes us to be world guardian, and instead it was a more alpha jumper than us. (I say more alpha because it's not necessarily the alpha jumper, since TLW suggest that we are a more alpha jumper for a different version of ourselves)

At some point though, there had to be the alpha jumper. There could happen in three ways:

Way 1:
There was a version of us that was not chosen by guthix. If they were killed because they were not chosen, then they never could have created us, so we know they had to survive...

30-Jun-2016 16:35:14 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2016 16:47:22 by Cthris

Dec

2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

long enough to time travel, and cause some "quantum event", as coined by sep, creating a new universe in which Guthix notices the alpha jumper and thus chooses the beta adventurer which would follow the standard path that our player follows, (ie being chosen by guthix, going back in time and attracting seren, and then going back in time and being noticed by guthx) I call this the traditional cycle.

or

Way 2:
Somehow a WG from a beta universe gets transported to the alpha universe, (thus creating a beta universe). This WG, chosen by guthix would then follow the traditional path and begin the traditional cycle that the clone universes follow.

or

Way 3: Which is basically what Sep just stated.

The baby WG is removed from the alpha universe, and moved to a beta universe were Guthix would already choose them, and thus they begin the traditional cycle.

Way 3 would best explain the DoD universe since the DoD universe has no evidence of time travel, and would suitably explain why there is no version of us.

30-Jun-2016 16:46:30 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2016 16:50:59 by Cthris

Aug

2008

Cybernet377

Posts: 2,725 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

What I'm saying is that there's nothing to suggest that DoD is definitely the result of an alpha universe where the canon WG was removed from it, either as a child or as an adult, the least of reasons why that's unlikely being that Way 3 requires an outside agent to move the baby WG, Way 1 is infeasible as Guthix does not recognize us in Light Within, which he would have to if he had noticed the alpha WG, and Way 2 would involve the WG being explicitly aware of their time-traveling/dimension-hopping past.

The idea of DoD being a normal world previously and the differences in the world were caused by a retroactive removal of the WG also doesn't make sense given that in Meeting History and Recipe for Disaster, the world in the present remained unaffected throughout the changes made by the player traveling to and from the pasts, and as Hguoh noted, many things the player is directly responsible for remain consistent before, during, and after doing the quests, implying that the timeline remains consistent and can't be changed in such a massive way as suggested via a result of time-travel.

I feel that DoD and the canon universes work better as closed systems either not directly connected to one another until the events of the quest, or with a minor variance in the timeline outside of events directly caused by the WG that in turn effected the changes leading to our character either being unborn or not accomplishing anything of note.

The canon timeline is already a bundle of knots and curves due to the player messing around with the key, if the best explanation of a many-worlds interpretation of events is that an outside agent kidnapped a baby, dumped it in another reality, and Guthix has already chosen said baby as the WG despite the fact that the baby isn't supposed to exist in said reality, then maybe the many-worlds theory isn't working.

30-Jun-2016 18:08:36 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2016 18:24:02 by Cybernet377

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,240 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Sepulchre said :
Solanumtinkr said :
*snip*.
That seems more like a mix of the Many-worlds Interpretation and the Novikov Self-consistency Principle. Basically a "You can't change the past, anything that you did in the past has already happened." Except with a "Because you went to a parallel universe and killed a different version of your grandfather." Forgive me if I use the wrong phrasing but I am trying to put across an idea that is somewhat hard for me to explain. The consistency principle is neither here nor there and the problem I have with the Many worlds is that there would be infinite amounts of them expanding exponentially at their slowest rate. And one thing that seems constant is that there is not an infinite amount of energy to go around.

So please forgive me I have trouble getting the concept across. As I am still feeling some of this out.

I was thinking along the lines of limited energy to play possibilities out. I suppose you could call it limit ability to observe an events. Like Schrodinger Cat, 1,000 boxes but only 50 windows that you can observe the contents of a boxes through. 50 can be observe andSo you end up with 950 quantumly indeterminist possibilities. Now maybe all 950 won't be able to hold on either, that would leave you with a certain about of possible universal branches that have the potential to be observed, even if there are currently not enough windows to do so.

Deja vu at a stretch be a partial interaction with one of the indeterminate possibilities. You'd still be looking through the same "window" unless you jump universes completely then you'd just be switching the window you look through.

The question you're left with then is time travel back along to before the observation possible or is the 'observation' still linear, even if you time travel so you can do it differently. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

30-Jun-2016 18:18:12 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2016 18:21:14 by Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,240 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

So while it maybe Many worlds in style there are limits to it, rather than run away expansion. As for the consistency principle, the one time traveling would probably be the major event that a Many Worlds would hinge on, rather than what you were traveling back to. Add in some of those indeterminates, and I was thinking if you did change something, maybe one of those indeterminates would be slotted in. That would give you a limited choice of what could happen after you go back, but that would not mean the effect would not be profound. As in DoD profound. So our jumping back in time may have forced the "observation" of a universe similar to ours but without us in it. As by jumping back in time we were a Major Event and branch in the timeline.

No idea if that would mean we made us World Guardian, but I wouldn't rule it out. Did that make some sense? The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

30-Jun-2016 18:30:20 - Last edited on 30-Jun-2016 18:35:23 by Solanumtinkr

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We made us World Guardian?