RuneScape Forum Archive | The Defence of Saradomin

Nerevarine x

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Julienne: Emissary of Saradomin

Julienne is a priestess of Saradomin and acts as his emissary on Gielinor. You can ask her several questions about Saradomin and her responses give us a good insight into Saradomin's character.

1.

Who is Saradomin and why should I follow him?

Julienne: "Saradomin is the protector - the god of light and order. Saradomin has more followers than any other god and he has returned to protect us from evil and chaos".

Julienne: "Saradomin is the guardian of us all. Through his grace we will achieve security and peace."

The above sentences corroborate other sources of evidence pertaining to Saradomin's motives. He has indeed returned to protect people from evil and any chaos that may transpire. He wants to build a world free from oppression, from needless death and suffering.
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2.

What does Saradomin want?

Julienne: "Saradomin is the one true god. This is his world, and he will watch over us all. He wants us to be safe."

Julienne: "He will banish all other gods, so we can live on his world in peace - and in his glory."

Many people have criticised Saradomin for claiming Gielinor is "his world" calling him power hungry or egotistical.

On the contrary, I see this as a huge positive for Saradomin. Saradomin has boldly taken a position of ownership over Gielinor - not because of his personal desire for authority but instead, due to his deep sense of pride for this world.

In making a claim of ownership, Saradomin has demonstrated that he is fully prepared and committed to taking on the responsibility of protecting Gielinor's citizens from harm, to facilitate their growth and the functionality of peace.

He treats the realm of Gielinor as something prized, it is important and sacred to him, as if it was his home realm.

06-Dec-2013 05:45:36 - Last edited on 06-Dec-2013 08:23:26 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Saradomin said in the Death of Chivalry: "Gielinor is a precious jewel in the looted treasury of the cosmos".

This is a strong statement, affirming Saradomin's connection to Gielinor.
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Several lore users have criticised Saradomin for wanting to "banish all other gods".

Ironically, this was exactly what Guthix did and it worked effectively. The difference is, on this occasion, Saradomin's guidance and wisdom will protect us from the injustices in Gielinor as well. While Guthix would not intervene, Saradomin will, for the better.

If it is true Saradomin wants to expel the other gods, it is for a very good reason.

Saradomin may believe that a stable, secure and peaceful world cannot be achieved when war and chaos is rife and when multiple gods reign.

In the Death of Chivalry he said:

Saradomin: "As long as these invaders (Gods) exist, your world shall never know peace".

Saradomin might think that one god should guide us and that there must not be conflict even between gods of the same good disposition (Saradomin, Seren and Armadyl). Peace can ONLY come from an absolute end to the gods bickering.

If this is the case, I trust Saradomin's judgement, even if others don't understand.

Padomenes, Icyene General from the Battle of Lumbridge:

Padomenes is an interesting character and reflects Saradomin's concept of fighting for the good in the world, he has a very respectable moral compass.

1.

Padomenes says it is his mission to show misguided people the "truth of Saradomin's glory."

He is not only Saradomin's General but a priest, and preached for many years on the Icyene home land.

Mission is a pretty crucial word above, as it shows he is very committed to a diplomatic resolution - he wants to talk to people who have misconceptions about Saradomin and help them understand the reality of the world.

06-Dec-2013 05:45:40 - Last edited on 06-Dec-2013 10:11:57 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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He wants to show them that Saradomin is not evil, that he is a great protector and a great promoter of order and peace.

Afterwards, Padomenes says "those who refuse to see the truth and stand in our way , as Zamorak does now, they leave us no choice , they must be destroyed."

Padomenes' dialogue illustrates multiple times how Saradomin and his army do not wish to commence hostilities against anyone, but if it is the only alternative then it must be considered and acted upon.

It demonstrates Saradomin's will to protect the people, even if war is the only answer.

2.

In addition, Padomenes mentions that "we still stand no heretics" for those who take up Zamorak's false banner against Saradomin.

Many use this as an argument for Saradomin's intolerance of anyone who does not wish to follow him.

But what does this actually mean? The definition of a heretic is one who holds controversial opinions, one who dissents from a particular faith or denies it (in this case, Saradominist faith).

Padomenes says that "we will stand no heretics", meaning he will kill these dissenters.

We can theorise as to why he said this, but the most logical conclusion is that Padomenes doesn't tolerate Zamorak's concept of chaos, suffering, death and destruction as it differs from Saradomin's morals. Thus, he labels them as heretics that should be (rightfully I say) persecuted.

Interestingly, other evidence shows Saradomin is in fact tolerant:

Mod Stu said: "I think Saradomin is more reasonable and tolerant than either faction has been led to believe. I don't think he would condemn a demon who was committed to his ideals."

Mod Osborne stated on Twitter: "Saradomin is not someone who would smite anyone who doesn't follow him. He only takes on those who threaten his people or himself."

Saradomin's tolerance can be seen in the Death of Chivalry Quest. If the player aligned with Zamorak for the Battle of Lumbridge, Saradomin says:

06-Dec-2013 05:45:46 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 08:21:48 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Saradomin: "You think I don't know that you've joined Zamorak, World Guardian? I was watching when you crawled under his wing."

Saradomin: "But..I am a forgiving and just god. Mortals can change, as I am sure you will."
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"The Song From Before the War" - A Full Analysis

The "Song From Before the War" is a document that was unearthed in an excavation in Al Kharid, one of the very few first-hand accounts to survive the God Wars.

It's an intriguing record which is essential to post on, because a number of lore users have attempted to use the details in the "Song From Before the War", to vilify Saradomin and label him as a god of malevolence. This is false, as you'll soon discover from my analysis.

I address three main criticisms or myths in this section.

1.

The issue of Saradomin or the Icyene denying of medical aid (golem limbs) to humans.

I examine and address this claim in detail.

2.

Other lore users suggest Sergeant Mazakon, an Icyene Commander, utilised Elspeth to enchant humans, to control their minds so they would join Saradomin's Army.

I scrutinise this allegation and put it to rest.

3.

Various lore users believe the Icyene discriminated against humans by not allowing them in positions of high command or belittling them. They also suggest humans did not want to fight for Saradomin and were weak.

Once again, I explore this thoroughly and contest the statement.
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The "Song From Before the War" begins with the author of the manuscript telling us that a massive battle was taking place.

He says: "I couldn't see individual soldiers, but sometimes I could see blue and red lights circling above the lines, Icyene and demons locked in aerial combat."

06-Dec-2013 05:46:19 - Last edited on 14-Dec-2013 14:39:42 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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"I noticed the crunch of footsteps on the path leading up to my village's plateau. I watched the bend in the path until the visitors came into view."

"At first I thought I was seeing an adult leading a group of children, but then I saw the feathered wings folded at the leader's back and realised that he was an Icyene, and what I had taken for children were ordinary-sized humans."

"There were a dozen soldiers on foot, and one figure riding side-saddle on a white horse: a woman, wrapped in a grey cloak and clutching something in her arms."

Here we see that an epic conflict was transpiring between both Zamorak and Saradomin. An Icyene Commander named Mazakon approached the village of the author, with a woman riding a horse following him close behind, draped in a grey cloak.
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Next, the author says: "I ran back to the village hall and breathlessly told Elder Tasgall what I'd seen."

"He looked up from his meal wearily, then held out a hand. I passed him his crutch and helped him stand; Tasgall had lost one of his legs at the Front ten years ago. "We might as well start rounding people up",he sighed.

The author observes Mazakon in the village, seeing that his left arm and left leg were grey-brown and the texture of pottery.

"Golem limbs", someone beside me whispered. "They make them in Uzer."

"Why doesn't Elder Tasgall have one?" I asked.

"Don't be silly", my friend said. "They don't make them for humans."

An issue of great interest is the fact Sergeant Mazakon lost his arm and leg in the war, having them replaced with golem limbs. However, golem limbs were not made for humans - and lore users say this is a denial of medical treatment by Saradomin.

This is not true. Saradomin is not mentioned once as being blameworthy for humans not receiving golem limbs as medical supplies.

06-Dec-2013 05:46:39 - Last edited on 07-Dec-2013 08:02:04 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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The author's friend says " they don't make them for humans." They is plural , to indicate more than one. It refers to the Icyene, not Saradomin.

We can determine Saradomin wasn't accountable for the lack of medical relief in the form of golem limbs, but the Icyene were.

Lore users say this shows they were bigoted towards races like humans.

We need to establish the motive for refusal to dispatch golem limbs to humans as racial prejudice , but we don't have enough details to conclude that.

It's possible the Icyene were bigoted, but there are other, equally feasible explanations.

Varmen's Notes, written by an archaeologist named Varmen at Uzer state:

"The unidentified symbol in the ruins is that of the demon Thammaron, who was Zamorak's lieutenant during the Godwars of the Third Age."

"I surmise that an army of golems were created in order to fight the demon, since Uzer's army had been wiped out and Saradomin's forces were increasingly stretched."

Varmen suggests that a force of golems were made to protect Uzer, but only after Saradomin's military (the Icyene, among others) were unable to defend the town and the city's own army was defeated.

Golem parts were mass manufactured at this time, but we can't determine if this was the case in the past. The events in the "Song From Before the War" took place prior to the creation of the golem army at Uzer. Hence, the argument that golem limbs were always abundant and available for humans is unsupported.

In the "The Song From Before the War" Mazakon says:

"The Front has moved twenty kilometres south in the last hundred years. If we don't push back Uzer itself could be in danger."

The author, shocked, replies: "Uzer was the pinnacle of our civilization, safe far behind the Front , surely it could never be in danger?"

Clearly, "The Song From Before the War" occurs in a different time period, Uzer was not under immediate threat.

06-Dec-2013 05:47:06 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 07:46:04 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Some lore users argue that, if golem limbs have the potential to be produced on a large scale, such as when the golem army was made, why weren't they created for human use earlier?

There's several possible reasons, which are exclusive of bigotry.

1. Resources are finite.

Uzer had the ability to mass produce golem limbs but that does not mean it was sustainable.

The golem army they forged was out of desperation. Clay used to construct golem limbs is not ever lasting and as such should be used conservatively, for those races who require it most during the war - the Icyene.

2. Expenses associated with production.

If an item is costly to create it will be used only for those require it the most in battle - the Icyene.

3. Priority due to battlefield effectiveness.

Realistically, the Icyene were far more powerful combatants than humans. Golem limbs should be fitted to the Icyene before humans purely from a strategic and logistical view.

4. Supply and demand.

If the Icyene were to dispatch golem limbs to humans and a high demand existed, it may surpass their rate of supply, even in mass manufacturing. This causes problems in the chain of distribution, where the Icyene are affected.
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The author of the "Song From Before the War" states that when the sun went down, the villagers gathered in the hall to be addressed by Sergeant Mazakon.

"People of Saradomin!" Mazakon boomed. "I am here to present to you one of your own! A human, though with Icyene blood."

"A holy warrior who has slain a dozen of Zamorak's demons, not with a sword or spell, but with her voice! Ladies and gentlemen--Elspeth."

The author of the "Song From Before the War" asserts: "Her voice was heartbreakingly beautiful."

"As soon as she began singing I was transported to a world of glorious battle, of absolute good vanquishing absolute evil, of Icyene and demons duelling atop the towers of legendary cities."

06-Dec-2013 05:47:32 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 06:12:34 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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"Watching the beautiful Icyene-blooded woman, hearing her perfect, piercing voice, I think I fell in love with her right then. I think every young man in the the audience did."

In this part of the document we can see that Elspeth, who is acknowledged as an Icyene-blooded woman (wrongfully might I add, which I'll discuss in a moment), is an incredible and amazing singer.

Through her gracious voice, Elspeth had the unique ability to transfer people to a world where good triumphed and evil was subdued.

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The author continues by saying: "She sang a song from the point of view of a soldier's sweetheart, about how proud she was of her man, and how she knew Saradomin would send him home safely."

"She sang about a soldier dying on the battlefield and looking back over his service, thinking how proud he was to be dying for Saradomin rather than growing old."

"She sang about the Icyene commanders waiting at the Front, knowing that they could achieve a decisive victory if only a few more good men came to their aid."

"Who will fight?" went the refrain. "Who will fight with us today?"

"I'll fight with you!" I shouted. Everyone around me was shouting as well. "I'll fight with you!"

After Elspeth's singing concluded and she swayed the emotions of the crowd, the author admits that he wanted to fight and so did his fellow villagers. They all shouted out in support.
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Later that night, Elder Tasgall spoke to Mazakon:

"You're taking too many, too soon," Tasgall said. "The village won't be able to sustain itself if you steal all our young people."

Mazakon replied by saying: "Those youths nobly volunteered to serve Saradomin. Would you deny them their right?"

To which Tasgall implied: "Your icyene-blooded sorceress enchanted them."

06-Dec-2013 05:48:05 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 06:28:56 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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Mazakon uttered in response: "You should be glad your village is in Saradomin's territory. Do you know the Army of Zamorak's recruitment tactics?"

Shortly after, Elspeth divulges to the author: "I don't have Icyene blood."

"Sergeant Mazakon added that part of the story. People didn't believe that a human could do the things I'd done."

The author then asked her: "But the way you sang.."

"I practice a lot."

The author of the "Song From Before the War" articulates: "I didn't contradict her, but I knew that no ordinary mortal could have sung the way I had heard Elspeth sing."

The brief communication between Elder Tasgall and Mazakon has been used by lore users to suggest Elspeth enchanted the human men, controlling their thoughts through her beautiful singing, so that they were seduced into enlisting in Saradomin's army. However, this appears to be incorrect, or at the very least, not convincing grounds to make such a judgement.

Mazakon admits Elspeth is used as part of a recruitment tactic (a legitimate one) but never mentions that she has the ability to enchant anyone.

In addition, the discussion between Elspeth and the author afterwards shows that that she is in fact, not an Icyene at all.

Elder Tasgall was wrong to describe her as Icyene-blooded. She's simply a human. She tells us that she practices her singing comprehensively and she does not allude to any powers of enchantment or mind control.

The author offers theories as to why Elspeth's singing was so elegant, but does not ever mention feeling an incompetence to make his own decisions.

These three pieces of evidence tied together validate the notion that the men from the village could all make their own conscious choice of whether to fight for Saradomin or not in the end - their minds weren't manipulated.

It's fair to say the humans were influenced by Elspeth who encouraged them to fight, but this remains a perfectly legitimate recruitment strategy and they were not forced.

06-Dec-2013 05:48:42 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 06:30:26 by Nerevarine x

Nerevarine x

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If we consider that Elspeth's voice might be blessed by Saradomin as the author possibly suspects, it is critical to keep in mind that it still does not establish that Elspeth has mind controlling or enchanting abilities from her voice.
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Another excerpt of dialogue from Elder Tasgall and Sergeant Mazakon's conversation is employed by lore users to advocate the Icyene were discriminatory towards humans.

We've already delved into the topic of golem limbs and come to the conclusion that it's unclear - but the Icyene could be bigoted.

Lore users believe the evidence displayed below strengthens their view that the Icyene were prejudiced:

Elder Tasgall: "But what good does sending whole villages to the Front do? The lines haven't moved since I fought there."

Sergeant Mazakon: "This is why there are no humans in the High Command, you don't live long enough to see the whole picture."

Sergeant Mazakon: "The Front has moved twenty kilometres south in the last hundred years. Zamorak sends powerful demons to raze every settlement they can reach. If we stop pushing back, Uzer itself could be in danger."

Instead of claiming the Icyene are prejudiced and wished to deny humans positions of authority in the High Command, I argue that Sergeant Mazakon is absolutely justified in what he says.

He makes it clear that humans do not live long enough to identify progress on the battlefield and cannot see the whole picture of the war.

Icyene Commanders can better assess the situation for a longer time. They can see the development that is made on the battlefield and can make tactical decisions in hindsight that humans could not, simply because humans don't live long enough to understand.

Your very best must be commanders, so it is not discriminatory if they were exclusively Icyene - it is practical and efficient.

06-Dec-2013 05:49:28 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2013 06:31:50 by Nerevarine x

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The Defence of Saradomin