RuneScape Forum Archive | Seren, Zaros, Mother Nature

Solanumtinkr

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I think 'Nature' is a term that is being thrown around without any clear definition behind any of the parties using it to bash each other. It certainly seems clear, that while close, their definitions do not quite match.

You also have to ask yourself whether Elder gods are natural parts of the universe or just very powerful and taking advantage of the situation. To call them natural, and not just predatory, is say the universe is there's to create and consume. Anything that detracts from that would be unnatural by design. Meaning that mortals would be the ultimate expression of the unnatural, since the Elders normally go out of their way to make sure none appear.

This leaves us with a quandary, maybe even a contradiction on what is natural and unnatural, as Edlers, gods and mortals would all be saying opposing things. Yet it also leaves diametrically opposed actions and views, meaning what we consider natural and unnatural becomes meaningless, as all parties would be doing something that would be unnatural to the other. Or so the way they define natural.

Or in short, it's a mess. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

01-Dec-2015 06:09:47

Raleirosen

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Hexie Kazumi said :
I largely agree with your points, and I would just like to add that Seren's thing with the elves was partly denying her own nature. And since Seren is a force of nature, imbalance and destruction. Now she has realized that the part of her that seeks to destroy is a necessary part of her role in existence. ~~Well, assuming you gave her the dark crystal upon restoration~~

But yes. She is not a mother as Zaros is not a father. While not as mighty as the Elder Gods, these two are still transcendent enough to where such concretizations fundamentally fail to grasp their nature.
I also think that for the most part we agree; this Freudian sort of thing is pretty outdated (though in my opinion, still fun to discuss).

But I think we're coming to the same conclusion from different perspectives. I actually don't consider Seren and Zaros to be transcendent at all; so far they've been characterized quite normally. Both of them have admitted to making mistakes in the past, both appear to be capable of normal mortal emotions... nothing I've seen from them in-game has warranted or justified them being treated differently from the other, younger gods. Now, that could easily change in the future -- for example, I'm pretty sure Zaros was either lying or twisting the truth for a good portion of FOT*, and that sometime soon we might see more of his true character/power. But for now, I think you're kind of inflating their importance (Stannis is too, just in a different way). Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

01-Dec-2015 14:57:05

Raleirosen

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Solanumtinkr said :
I think 'Nature' is a term that is being thrown around without any clear definition behind any of the parties using it to bash each other. It certainly seems clear, that while close, their definitions do not quite match.
"Nature," to me, refers to the natural, undisturbed worlds that the Elder Gods left in their wake... albeit in this cycle they have an apparently unintentional(?) defect due to leaving Mah behind.

Solanumtinkr said :
You also have to ask yourself whether Elder gods are natural parts of the universe or just very powerful and taking advantage of the situation. To call them natural, and not just predatory, is say the universe is there's to create and consume. Anything that detracts from that would be unnatural by design. Meaning that mortals would be the ultimate expression of the unnatural, since the Elders normally go out of their way to make sure none appear.
We have no reason to question the Elders' purpose. They've been doing their thing for Osborne knows how long, and they're totally beyond our understanding anyway. So yes, it is mortals who are inherently unnatural in RuneScape's universe.

But I also happen to have a pretty highly developed sense of self-preservation, so I say to hell with what's natural. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

01-Dec-2015 14:58:58 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2015 15:03:23 by Raleirosen

Svigris

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To start this off I've personally called freudianism, fraudianism so I don't exactly have the highest of esteems for the "psychologist", most of his teachings where either common sense or baseless postulates with no backing. Just getting that out there.

I think the problem you seem to have is that you seem to think that RS gods are somehow intrinsically related to the world's well being and requires they're existence. There are so many cases of this being false I shouldn't need to list them.

Seren and Zaros are very clearly broken personalities, each of them having what the other lacks. Seren is empathetic but shes also wrathful and obsessive, these are not traits of the idealized mother. Zaros might seem like he's a god of control, and he most certainly wants to be one, but time and time again he has proven he is blind to the most obvious things, he doesn't represent what he claims to be. He hardly an ideal father, he might claim to know whats right and know all, but he quite clearly doesn't.

I'm not sure why you mention saradomin. Is he suppose to be the Id? Sure he's short tempered but unlike Zaros and Seren he's proven he is actually trying to accomplish a noble goal.

I'm really not seeing the comparisons to paganism and Christianity. Is it suppose to represent how a religion based around the observation of the natural order got trampled by a religion about restraint and belittlement? Because thats kinda what it sounds like, which doesn't happen in RS.

01-Dec-2015 16:47:44

KingStannis5

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Well now that I've read your recent comments, I can see all the misunderstandings of me you're making.

I guess this is my fault. In this thread I forgoed careful definitions for the dramatic, becuase this is a glorious narrative which i thought should be told in a more theatrical way.

01-Dec-2015 19:03:26 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2015 19:24:02 by KingStannis5

KingStannis5

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I really cannot be bothered to criticise line by line everybody now, I don't have the energy for these things I had a few years ago. I'll respond with general points:

Yes, the Elder gods are transcendent and so don't take on the gendered features I've been talking about. SO what, they still formed the world which formed the psychologies of S/Z. S/Z are the First Mother/Father figures to the younger gods (that's my main thesis to this entire unfinished project, you'll see if I do the Saradomin one). But the Elder gods stand in relation to */* as parents as they formed the universe which Zaros was driven to overcome and Seren to accept. . Therefore the Elder gods = the universe. This was just supposed to be a vague gist that S/Z were formed by the way teh world the Elders made, it didn't need to be this closely examined becuase the vague gist of it, which is all i need, is undeniably true. Seren WAS given a purpose by Mah in a way Zaros wasn't, and their characters and aims currently DO reflect this. Strangely, this is the central premise to my argument, and yet no one seems to have disagreed with this explicitly.

Sure as a Psycological theory Fruedianism is bs, but man just watch Starwars....there's something Fruedian looking that manifests itself in art. If you disagree forget Fruedianism, which my idea doesn't strictly need, and accept that Father and Mother figures are important and are symbolic as well as the banal biological act of reproduction.

You guys seem to think that to be the Mother and Father figures they have to be in some way transcendently in control of the world. I make it explicably clear that all I am talking about is the psychologies of the gods, this is a theory of the PANTHEON not a metaphysics. This seems to me to clear up the bulk of Smith's misgivings at least.

There are light particles and not dark particles. That's what i was getting at is is just a fact.

01-Dec-2015 19:22:47

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Svigris said :
To start this off I've personally called freudianism, fraudianism so I don't exactly have the highest of esteems for the "psychologist", most of his teachings where either common sense or baseless postulates with no backing. Just getting that out there.

I wouldn't judge Freud's work so harshly if I were you.

-Many of this "common knowledge" is only common knowledge because of Freud's work. Have you ever heard of Hindsight bias? This is a term that philosophers and psychologist have coined to name the phenomenon of thinking knowledge that is common sense in the present, was common knowledge in the past. Just something you might want to read up upon if you haven't already.

-Freud did contribute many things to the field of psychology. For instance, he was one of the first people to suggest neuroplasticty, an extremely important part of understanding the human psych. Another example would be his work on psychoanalytic therapy caused mental health aid to go leaps and bounds, and is still used today. Granted many of his theories are not testable, but that doesn't make them necessarily inaccurate, or frauds. The are used to create frameworks of thought in order for other social scientist to have a path of progression, or expectability, similar to say Karl Marx's conflict perspective of society. (I'll give you the point that his ideas about the co-cane [censor issues] are largely false) and his experimental work was extremely important to getting to where we are now.

However Stannis makes a really good point, outside of actual psychology, Freuds work is very important to literature theory. In fact, it is one of the schools of criticisms that is used to interpret text.

01-Dec-2015 21:10:48 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2015 21:32:57 by Cthris

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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@Katrana
Being transcendent does not mean that they are detached , emotionless, and impersonal. Though I would say that Zaros fits those criteria. Rather, that Transcendent means they are beyond the scope of a mere figure, and fulfill a role to existence that goes beyond that of mortals, and even other deities.

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit. They are in no way as powerful as Elder Gods, nor do they shape all of existence. But they do represent the same cycle that the Elder Gods do, but on a manageable scale that does not demolish everything. But they are transcendent because their roles are a way of the Universe, and though the scale of their role is smaller, it is still one that is essential, and will need to be filled, always.

I also think you underestimate their importance slightly, because in the coming years, they will determine how the ways of the Universe might fundamentally change. Without the Elders, their will be a vacuum where they normally did an essential role. And Zaros and Seren are the ones who would end up filling it, because they do the same on a smaller scale

I concur that the Elder Gods have always just been doing their own thing, since probably the beginning of the Universe. Trying to ascribe a purpose is like trying to ascribe purpose to the wind, or the waves. They just are.

As for what is natural- well, it is fair to have self-preservation, but all things come to an end, and new things always arise. But if the Elder Gods were usurped, the natural flow of existence could be managed much less cataclysmically.

Finally, to address Mah- I don't think there is much will on her part. She feels, and things happen. If she feels alone, she spawns creatures. Seren and Zaros were examples of this. It just happens. She may be broken, but like the other Elder Gods, saying that she "Willed" it is to fundamentally misunderstand what an Elder God is . They just are.

02-Dec-2015 04:22:52

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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Seren gave her self purpose, just as Zaros did. She had the emotions, and recognized Mah as the one who brought her into existence, and Mah was suffering. Alone. Hurt. Broken. Seren's compassion that she was born with is most likely what drove her to aid Mah. I highly doubt there was any kind of "Seren, mama... take care of me."

Seren's nature drove her to help Mah. She was not given a role, but she made one for herself, just as the Empty Lord did. So I would argue that your "basic gist" still falls short. I just felt it important to discuss the nature of these beings which kind of exist outside the norms of being that we see in mortals, or even the lesser gods.

02-Dec-2015 04:22:56 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2015 04:26:27 by Hexie Kazumi

Raleirosen

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Hexie Kazumi said :
Being transcendent does not mean that they are detached , emotionless, and impersonal. Though I would say that Zaros fits those criteria. Rather, that Transcendent means they are beyond the scope of a mere figure, and fulfill a role to existence that goes beyond that of mortals, and even other deities.

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit. They are in no way as powerful as Elder Gods, nor do they shape all of existence. But they do represent the same cycle that the Elder Gods do, but on a manageable scale that does not demolish everything. But they are transcendent because their roles are a way of the Universe, and though the scale of their role is smaller, it is still one that is essential, and will need to be filled, always.

I also think you underestimate their importance slightly, because in the coming years, they will determine how the ways of the Universe might fundamentally change. Without the Elders, their will be a vacuum where they normally did an essential role. And Zaros and Seren are the ones who would end up filling it, because they do the same on a smaller scale
I don't discount the possibility of them fulfilling grand roles in the scheme of the universe. But for now, I haven't seen anything that makes them that much different from the younger gods; what roles are they playing right now that are so crucial to existence as we know it? I can't think of anything, really. Caring for a senile Elder and creating an ultimately fragile empire on a single world are not tasks on which the fate of the universe depend, to be perfectly honest. To me it's equally possible that they'll end up dying, leaving the power vacuum to Saradomin & Co (assuming they survive, anyway). We'll just have to see how things play out. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Dec-2015 20:27:25 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2015 20:30:20 by Raleirosen

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Seren, Zaros, Mother Nature