RuneScape Forum Archive | Seren, Zaros, Mother Nature

KingStannis5

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Raleirosen said :
KingStannis5 said :
I am studying philosophy atm actually, bit i have no notion of how this relates to my post which is clearly one of literary criticism?
It was a joke. Hence the "In all seriousness" in the following paragraph.

KingStannis5 said :
I think I reason clearly that the Elder gods are the mother and father figures of Seren and Zaros, and To claim her place and the next Mother Figure Seren has to merely exist, in the way she was created as part of the universe, wheras Zaros must rebel against that to be the Father figure, in the typical Fruedian way. What about that isn't clear?
How are the Elders father figures? Especially the other Elders (excepting Mah), who have no direct relation to Zaros and Seren. Further, the only Elder that can be precisely described as a mother figure is Mah. Can you really project her characterization onto the rest of them?

Seren's explicit personality and goals seem to be at odds with your conclusions, too. She has no desire to ascend to Elder godhood -- to "claim her place," as you say (unless you mean something else by that, in which case please do elaborate). Also, her emphasis on isolation as well as her focus on (one might even say preference for) the elves make it a little difficult to see her as a universal mother figure -- the capital-M Mother Figure, as you say.

Becuase they made the world in the exact way which those two inherited.

Seren claims her place by just being because her nature is not at odds with the universe, I thought that point was pretty explicit.

Trying to change the world to suit her would be going against my thesis anyway, she is the Mother figure because of her nature and that is all.

30-Nov-2015 19:40:04

Raleirosen

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KingStannis5 said :
Becuase they made the world in the exact way which those two inherited.

Seren claims her place by just being because her nature is not at odds with the universe, I thought that point was pretty explicit.

Trying to change the world to suit her would be going against my thesis anyway, she is the Mother figure because of her nature and that is all.
So wait, the ability to create is the only criteria for the Elders to be considered father/mother figures? I thought you were relying on gendered traits to support that claim. Unless the gendered traits criteria are reserved for Seren/Zaros only? If so, why? Oh, and also, there's a clear disconnect between the world (i.e. universe) that the Elders created and the one Z/S inherited: namely, the presence of sentient mortal life.

Likewise, it can be argued that Seren is in fact at odds with the universe; by her own admittance, she's the cause of much strife in the world. Of particular interest is the Dark Lord, who I think very clearly attempted to change the world to suit him. Same for the Elders: to us, their continued existence guarantees apocalypse. I think that qualifies as being at odds with them, and we are part of the universe, are we not? It's a matter of perspective.

Anyway, it's important to account for counterpoints as part of your thesis. "She's the mother figure because I say so" isn't particularly convincing, wouldn't you agree? You also didn't address the inconsistency between Seren's isolation/elvish predilection and your claim that she is THE Mother Figure. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

30-Nov-2015 20:32:15 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2015 20:38:48 by Raleirosen

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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I find your reasoning to be a bit weak, as somebody who spent years studying the entire evolution of all modern thought. I think it is worth noting that Freud was shelved for a reason, and that the necessity of a universal Mother and Father contradicts the true nature of reality. The Elder Gods are a far more reasonable representation of universal forces. Indifferent. Unchanging. They just are. The go through machinations with no real will. They just do, because that's what they do.

Seren is right in saying that the Elder Gods are so utterly transcendent that to try and see them as anything more than a force and a fact of existence is to fundamentally misunderstand their nature.

I think saying Zaros and Seren could be a mother and father is certainly a possible hypothesis, but far more likely as that these two simply reflect another truth of existence in the form of representing Yin and Yang. Like the Elders, they are more of a force than a figure. While Zaros and Seren have ambitions and drives, it is important to note that they represent a transcendent truth. That truth is not their role as a mother and father. That truth instead reflects the relationships between all things- Light and Dark, Chaos and Order, Emotion and Logic, Yin and Yang.

You are wrong in saying that dark is necessarily the absence of light. In a scientific sense, yes shadows form when light is not around. But It can also be said that light exists where darkness is not. Though there are no dark particles being stopped (that we know of) to create light, light is still devoid of dark.

Zaros and Seren must both exist, or neither can exist. It is outright incorrect to say that you can eliminate one but not the other without consequence. The Universe will be unbalanced without either one of them. Unless you kill both simultaneously, they both must needs be preserved. These two represent the divine relationship between Yin and Yang. They are transcendent in that sense

30-Nov-2015 21:14:52

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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As representative of the divine relationship between Yin and Yang, their role in existence is fundamentally defined by Zaros' and Seren's relation to each other. I would argue that neither one of them has a role in their own right, but that their roles are a compliment to each other.

Zaros serves primarily to think, and to be the void, the spaces in between, and to represent all that is not but also the potential of all that could be . Darkness is absence, but it is also potential. Voids can be filled, and likewise things can be erased to make voids from which new things can arise.

Seren serves to feel, and to live, and to be. She represents what is , but also the senescence of all things eventually passing on to make the way for future things to come acbout. Her role is to protect, but also to shepherd things back into nonbeing. Cataclysm arose when she tried to deny this reality of existence, going against her own nature. The need to send things into nonbeing is a part of her that, when supressed, erupted violently. Now that she has realized the error she made, it is not as likely to happen again.

They form a cycle of being and nonbeing, light and dark, existence and void. And when they are separated we see that each one of them has a role that is intrinsically related to the role of the other. Seren needs a darkness inside of her, to send things into the void, and Zaros needs to have the will to create, and allow light and being to arise from darkness and emptiness. These two are the circle of life, and the cycle of existence. From neutrality (the elder gods) to harmony- that is the story of this universe.

If Seren and Zaros were not there promoting the cycle of being and nonbeing, the Universe would be at the mercy of the Elder Gods, who also promote this cycle, but in a macro way that destroys whole existences. The two are fundamentally necessary- both of them- to stop the cycle of great revisions be promoting the cycle on a small scale

30-Nov-2015 21:14:59 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2015 21:33:13 by Hexie Kazumi

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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Zaros and Seren are the solution, and the only one, to the Elder Gods. We must help them realize their role as promoting the natural ways of existence in a manner that preserves and destroys in perfect harmony, all the time.

They are forces, far more than they are figures, and the great creation and destruction that the two brought are signs of this. A global order cannot last forever. It is simply not the way things are. I have respect for Saradomin's intentions, but he fundamentally fails to grasp what is necessary for existence to function, like most other deities in Gielinor. No faction really gets it- just individuals.

30-Nov-2015 21:37:20

Solanumtinkr

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Light is just a perception of energy and true Dark is sensory deprivation, but perception of Light and Dark as opposites relies solely on an individual being able to recognise light to start with. Not only that but Light is typically a narrow view of a much wider whole, where if you have the eyes to see, the universe is never truly dark, only our perception of it.

Nevertheless an interesting read, even if I did have to copy/paste and smack enter to make my own paragraphs, my eyes practically cross trying to read anything that even remotely resembles a wall. Easily overcome though

On that note I'll leave you with this...

Human Stupidity is the only shared trait that knows no boundaries. ~ Solanumtinkr
(Not aimed at anyone just food for thought) The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

30-Nov-2015 21:45:21 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2015 05:56:35 by Solanumtinkr

KingStannis5

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Raleirosen said :
KingStannis5 said :
.
So wait, the ability to create is the only criteria for the Elders to be considered father/mother figures? I thought you were relying on gendered traits to support that claim.

Unless the gendered traits criteria are reserved for Seren/Zaros only? If so, why?
There's a confusion here. The Elder gods act as the imposing parent figures of Z/*, but they don't exhibit this through their personalitites in the way Zaros and Seren do.

Oh, and also, there's a clear disconnect between the world (i.e. universe) that the Elders created and the one Z/S inherited: namely, the presence of sentient mortal life.

I was under the impression Zaros and Seren were created first. Nevermind, that does not preclude them from being the parent figures of the universe as they have the most power over the universe apart from the E Gods and this is all supposed to be going on in their minds anyway.

Likewise, it can be argued that Seren is in fact at odds with the universe; by her own admittance, she's the cause of much strife in the world.

The univserse is one of strife, what of it
Anyway, it's important to account for counterpoints as part of your thesis. "She's the mother figure because I say so" isn't particularly convincing, wouldn't you agree? You also didn't address the inconsistency between Seren's isolation/elvish predilection and your claim that she is THE Mother Figure.

I never said the Mother figure of all the races, but the is the ultimate divine incarnation of motherhood there is currently.

I don't see how your point, while not being wrong, actually contradict my thesis at all.

30-Nov-2015 21:51:27

Solanumtinkr

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I think you first have to look into what Mah is more representative of, not just a force of nature. Then see what she (and I use the gender designation loosely) would have been missing, while she was asleep, and then you might arrive at a foundation of why they were created. Not just as a toy Zaros says, as lacking any true emotion, he'd have trouble grasping what an Elder God would feel anyway. At best he was projecting his own fears.

Then dissect the binding forced on them by Mah, as this should lead to a reasonable conclusion as Mah's own fears (or concerns), though admittedly a certain amount of humanocentric projection would be involved in any case.

Now add in how a T2 god such as Zaros and Seren would handle and perceive the situation they find themselves in. Mah most likely lacks even a remote grasp of their, or mortal, psychology, meaning that she could easily have forced them into a relationship that may or may not be perceived as abusive, by a T2's social norms.

So you may end up with something close to abused siblings recovering from a bad situation. Though I would guess that none of this would contradict anything that ha been put forward so far, but it just something else that could be taken into account. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

30-Nov-2015 22:25:23

Raleirosen

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You can at least attempt to get the formatting right, man. Christ.

KingStannis5 said :
There's a confusion here. The Elder gods act as the imposing parent figures of Z/*, but they don't exhibit this through their personalitites in the way Zaros and Seren do.
How? The other Elders have almost no connection to Zaros or Seren, and in turn they have no real reason to think of them as anything but distant relatives; Mah was their creator after all, not Bik or Jas. In fact Seren's testimony describing the Elders as forces of nature flatly contradicts your claim. Pure conjecture on your part.

KingStannis5 said :
I was under the impression Zaros and Seren were created first. Nevermind, that does not preclude them from being the parent figures of the universe as they have the most power over the universe apart from the E Gods and this is all supposed to be going on in their minds anyway.
Yes, Seren and Zaros were created first... and then they spent untold eons sitting around twiddling their thumbs, having inherited nothing but Mah's medical bills. I would hardly say either of them inherited anything beyond Freneskae before they decided to up and leave.

KingStannis5 said :
The univserse is one of strife, what of it
Let me break it down for you then.

You have Seren. You have the elves, Seren's children. Seren admits that because of her, the elves, her metaphorical children, have suffered greatly. She disrupted the natural development of a planet and its people, cursing them. I would say that's being at odds against nature, wouldn't you? And yet you call her the ultimate divine incarnation of motherhood. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

01-Dec-2015 03:24:21

Jul

2012

Hexie Kazumi

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@Katrana

I largely agree with your points, and I would just like to add that Seren's thing with the elves was partly denying her own nature. And since Seren is a force of nature, imbalance and destruction. Now she has realized that the part of her that seeks to destroy is a necessary part of her role in existence.

~~Well, assuming you gave her the dark crystal upon restoration~~

But yes. She is not a mother as Zaros is not a father. While not as mighty as the Elder Gods, these two are still transcendent enough to where such concretizations fundamentally fail to grasp their nature.

01-Dec-2015 05:57:30 - Last edited on 02-Dec-2015 04:03:45 by Hexie Kazumi

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Seren, Zaros, Mother Nature