RuneScape Forum Archive | The Garlandia Accords

Hguoh

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Aeldari said :
I see no evidence ever presented that proclaims Saradomin arrived to start wars to aquire the Elder artifacts.

It wouldn't be his only/primary goal by any means. But unless Saradomin was one of the earliest gods to arrive on the plane, he would have to had to fight against the other gods already present in order to claim and/or expand his territory. And considering that he possessed the crown of archival, I find it unlikely that the presence of elder artifacts on Gielinor played an insignificant part in his reasons to come to Gielinor.

Aeldari said :
It also appears that Zaros is a liar, unless I am mistaken that he was the aggressor in the Kharidian-Zarosian war. The diary of the mercenary Gram Kobold illustrates that the Kharidians were on the defensive and were losing until Itchlarin arrived with reinforcements in the form of the Mahjarrat. It stands to reason now given this information, that the word of Zaros is not entirely credible and can not be used a sole source of factual evidence.

Um, no. The Kharidians were on the defensive at that point . That has no bearing on whether they were the initial aggressors. Considering that we are told that Zaros couldn't lie to us at that point without us knowing and Jmods have confirmed that their intention is that he truly couldn't lie to us, I'm inclined to trust that Zaros did not begin the war (his empire was just better at them and would eventually become the aggressors when their opponents were put on the defensive).

30-Nov-2017 16:57:53 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2017 16:58:11 by Hguoh

Aug

2023

William Witt

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Hguoh said :
Aeldari said :
I see no evidence ever presented that proclaims Saradomin arrived to start wars to aquire the Elder artifacts.

It wouldn't be his only/primary goal by any means. But unless Saradomin was one of the earliest gods to arrive on the plane, he would have to had to fight against the other gods already present in order to claim and/or expand his territory. And considering that he possessed the crown of archival, I find it unlikely that the presence of elder artifacts on Gielinor played an insignificant part in his reasons to come to Gielinor.

Aeldari said :
It also appears that Zaros is a liar, unless I am mistaken that he was the aggressor in the Kharidian-Zarosian war. The diary of the mercenary Gram Kobold illustrates that the Kharidians were on the defensive and were losing until Itchlarin arrived with reinforcements in the form of the Mahjarrat. It stands to reason now given this information, that the word of Zaros is not entirely credible and can not be used a sole source of factual evidence.

Um, no. The Kharidians were on the defensive at that point . That has no bearing on whether they were the initial aggressors. Considering that we are told that Zaros couldn't lie to us at that point without us knowing and Jmods have confirmed that their intention is that he truly couldn't lie to us, I'm inclined to trust that Zaros did not begin the war (his empire was just better at them and would eventually become the aggressors when their opponents were put on the defensive).

I think we heard at some point that the Kharidians were panicked by Zaros' constant expansion and started a minor border skirmish, which led to Zaros full-on invading them (therefore fulfilling the very thing they feared). So he technically didn't start it...

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30-Nov-2017 17:03:52

Hguoh

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Aeldari said :
As to this question I can only tell you what Saradomin himself said during Sliske's Endgame. When asked if he had returned to Teragard this was his response: "I...have not yet had the opportunity. Other worlds have greater need of my attention."

He's spent untold millennia away from Teragard at this point. Even if we discount the time spent on Gielinor during the 2nd and 3rd ages and the time spent putting down the rebellion on New Dominaria after the God Wars, that still has him away from Teragard for a pretty excessive period of time (especially considering the turnover rate for the average human) without a return visit.

I get that he thinks that his way is the best way for the universe, but it certainly seems like his prioritization of expansion to other worlds and/or of New Dominaria is hurting his ability to actually maintain the order he's worked to establish.

William Witt said :
I think we heard at some point that the Kharidians were panicked by Zaros' constant expansion and started a minor border skirmish, which led to Zaros full-on invading them (therefore fulfilling the very thing they feared). So he technically didn't start it...

So a good parallel to the Zarosians attacking the resettled Flamtaer on false information (minor border skirmish) leading to a full-scale invasion by Saradomin's forces.

30-Nov-2017 17:18:07 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2017 17:19:58 by Hguoh

Aeldari

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William Witt said :

I think we heard at some point that the Kharidians were panicked by Zaros' constant expansion and started a minor border skirmish, which led to Zaros full-on invading them (therefore fulfilling the very thing they feared). So he technically didn't start it...

I would very much like to know where this is from, I was always under the impression the Kharidians were never a match and in desperation recruited the Mahjarrat. It doesn't sound reasonable that a much weaker empire would attack Zaros unprovoked.

~Lore Hound~

/~Enticed Clan~

30-Nov-2017 17:30:11

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
Granting that, there’s still no evidence currently for military conflict between Saradominists and Zaroaians during the 2nd age.

I'd argue there's evidence in that the empire was expanding, Saradomin considers Zaros his enemy, and J Mods (I think it was Jack or Osborne) explained that the reason Saradomin accused Zaros of slavery was because of his own people being conquered and subservient to him (although it was kinda hypothetical).

There's just no solid concrete proof. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

30-Nov-2017 17:54:54

Ancient Drew

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Zaros mentioned bringing the younger gods under one banner, and in his memoriam device he said that he would bring them to heel if they didn't listen. This was before the business with the Kharidians, and he also said in our mind threshold (where he couldn't lie) that he and Saradomin agreed to disagree. This implies that they agreed to keep out of each others' way, and as such there was no conflict between the Saradominists and Zarosians.

But then Zamorak stepped up and stabbed Zaros, taking a large portion of followers with him who shared his feeling that Zaros had left them to stagnate and made empty promises. It was later on that Saradomin took the opportunity to bring his own order to Gielinor and sought out Zaros' secrets, either to take them for himself (which would make sense if Lassar had become the Temple Knight base), or to stop Zamorak taking it, seeing him as his polar opposite and preventing a threat to the peace. Saradominists and Zamorakians had worked together to take down the Empire, but likely fought over the taking of it (see the Battle of Annakarl and Senntisten which would become Saranthium for example). Then again Paddewwa was a large base, and had likely been buried under what would later become Edgeville.

Saradomin does use underhanded and often dirty methods, and acts rashly, but I think he does mean well and hopes to protect the innocent from outside danger and themselves. Hence him saying in DoC:

"I try to do what is necessary to protect my people, that they might live a life of virtue without fear...and have no cause to dirty his hands, as I have."

And his holy book mentions that the currency of goodness is honour, and that it retains its value through scarcity. Which means he's willing to go to most any lengths to protect his people. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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30-Nov-2017 18:00:49

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
I'd argue there's evidence in that the empire was expanding, Saradomin considers Zaros his enemy, and J Mods (I think it was Jack or Osborne) explained that the reason Saradomin accused Zaros of slavery was because of his own people being conquered and subservient to him (although it was kinda hypothetical).

There's just no solid concrete proof.

Oh I agree that the empire still expanded after Tumeken's sacrifice, just that it was driven by the Mahjarrat's whims rather than Zaros's. I just don't see much/any evidence for conflict prior to the coup between the forces of Saradomin and Zaros.

30-Nov-2017 20:11:55

Dec

2023

Cthris

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A couple of things:

You guys wanted evidence of military battles between Zarosians and Saradominist in the Second age? Well, I got ingame evidence and jmod quote evidence.

- The service of our lord took us on long expeditions, exterminating Saradominist filth, and the other generals had time to forget Viggora's Folly. Secretly, I planned to return. I could augment my fortress, add-higher levels and deeper dungeons, fortify the surrounding lands, make it a truly magnificent achievement, and thus earn respect for humankind. Declaration of Viggora
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Hazeel said :

I'd argue there's evidence in that the empire was expanding, Saradomin considers Zaros his enemy, and J Mods (I think it was Jack or Osborne) explained that the reason Saradomin accused Zaros of slavery was because of his own people being conquered and subservient to him (although it was kinda hypothetical).

There's just no solid concrete proof.

Got that quote right here: (It was Mod Jack btw)

Original message details are unavailable.
Okay let me clarify.

I'm not saying that the Zarosian Empire had slaves. (Although I'm also not denying that they did.)

What I'm saying is that from Saradomin's POV, the happy, joyous people of Saradomiville were conquered militarily and suddenly seemed to be loyal to Zaros. The only explanation he can see is that they were enslaved, so that's what he told everyone.

Of course, conditions weren't great in the Empire anyway. Would you consider working in a Victorian workhouse slavery? What about a modern sweatshop?

Note how Saradomiville was conquered Militarily.
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30-Nov-2017 23:26:53 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2017 23:43:04 by Cthris

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Aeldari said :
William Witt said :

I think we heard at some point that the Kharidians were panicked by Zaros' constant expansion and started a minor border skirmish, which led to Zaros full-on invading them (therefore fulfilling the very thing they feared). So he technically didn't start it...

I would very much like to know where this is from, I was always under the impression the Kharidians were never a match and in desperation recruited the Mahjarrat. It doesn't sound reasonable that a much weaker empire would attack Zaros unprovoked.

Ask and you shall receive: (From Fate of the Gods FAQ)

[They used to do these after every update, but they've dropped the ball in recent times]

Q: Zaros says that he didn't start any of the wars that he was involved in. Does that mean that Icthlarin started it when Zaros fought in the desert?

Mod Rowley: I'd imagine it being more prosaic than that, with it starting from simple border skirmishes (Kharidians launching a pre-emptive strike at the expanding Zarosian border out of fear) involving none of the gods. The desert gods have ever only been interested in their own little area of the world, with no desire for expansion.

30-Nov-2017 23:44:36 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2017 23:46:17 by Cthris

Aeldari

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Cthris said :

Ask and you shall receive: (From Fate of the Gods FAQ)

[They used to do these after every update, but they've dropped the ball in recent times]

Q: Zaros says that he didn't start any of the wars that he was involved in. Does that mean that Icthlarin started it when Zaros fought in the desert?

Mod Rowley: I'd imagine it being more prosaic than that, with it starting from simple border skirmishes (Kharidians launching a pre-emptive strike at the expanding Zarosian border out of fear) involving none of the gods. The desert gods have ever only been interested in their own little area of the world, with no desire for expansion.

That is very interesting, I wasn't aware of that thank you for finding it. So there was a border dispute with some skirmishes and then Zaros empire invaded completely?

~Lore Hound~

/~Enticed Clan~

01-Dec-2017 00:15:27

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