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MystLunaris

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MystLunaris said :

We know that in the second age Saradomin was fighting Zaros before Zamorak even betrayed him and from this quote, by Zaros pretty clearly shows that Saradomin was the aggressor.
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."
"Saradomin sought my secrets. Whether to steal them or bury them, I cannot say."
Seems like Saradomin is a pretty Warmongery guy to me.

Let me also put some further perspective on this because I ran out of space.
Although the second line of that is said in relation to Saradomin's continued aggression against the Zarosian's after Zaros' fall, I think it can be assumed that Saradomin was also interested in Zaros' secrets before that.

So let's say Zaros tries to negotiate with Saradomin early on to join under his banner or at least form some kind of alliance with him and offers him and his people resources and technological secrets etc and assures him that he and his people will live well under his rule and maybe even talks about the importance of an allegiance and of the danger of the Elder Gods, which Saradomin should know about from his previous encounter with The Sleeper.
Instead of agreeing to this offer and bringing more prosperity to his people and uniting with Zaros to help solve the problem of the Elder Gods and The Great Revision. Saradomin just decides to go "Nah fuck that, I'm gonna kill all of your people and my people instead, continue to ignore the threat of the Elder Gods and just try to steal all of your secrets even though you offered to give them to me peacefully anyway."
I really have no idea how anyone saw Saradomin as the God of Good or Wisdom. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

27-Nov-2017 22:24:39

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said :
MystLunaris said :
Askroth was only one city, I think helping to wipe out the whole Zarosian empire when he could've defended them from Zamorak instead surpasses that.

Considering the Zarosian Empire attacked him first on false intelligence (see Virtus Book: Torva Section), I wouldn't consider that as much of an atrocious decision as annihilating a city shortly after your arrival because some people who couldn't pose a threat to you unless you let them were rude to you.

Actually, that part of the book seems like it's set just before Zamorak's betrayal of Zaros and it's been said multiple times before that Zaros and Saradomin had fought way before then.
Although that was likely the slaughter of a bunch of innocent people due to false information given by Viggora, it was not the act that made Saradomin start fighting the Zarosians, they had fought plenty of times before that.
And, again, as a quote from Zaros himself
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."

Anyway, even then once Zamorak had taken Zaros out of the picture Saradomin could've offered the Zarosian's peace and shown them his good intentions by protecting them from being killed by Zamorak's forces, instead he teamed up with Zamorak to wipe them off the face of Gilenor.
And let's not forget that all the Zarosians (except Sliske) were willing to try and peacefully talk to Guthix rather than just kill him, so it seems likely that they would have taken a peaceful option if Saradomin had tried to give them one. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

27-Nov-2017 22:45:54 - Last edited on 27-Nov-2017 22:51:07 by MystLunaris

Hguoh

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MystLunaris said :
Actually, that part of the book seems like it's set just before Zamorak's betrayal of Zaros and it's been said multiple times before that Zaros and Saradomin had fought way before then.
Although that was likely the slaughter of a bunch of innocent people due to false information given by Viggora, it was not the act that made Saradomin start fighting the Zarosians, they had fought plenty of times before that.

Source please?

MystLunaris said :
And, again, as a quote from Zaros himself
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."

Given Zaros was unaware of the incoming coupe, he wouldn't have been aware of the attack his troops made at the time. In addition as the attack was not one of his intention and/or one he would have permitted, he can just as easily say that he did not start the war even if he is aware of said events now.

27-Nov-2017 23:11:10

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said :
MystLunaris said :
Actually, that part of the book seems like it's set just before Zamorak's betrayal of Zaros and it's been said multiple times before that Zaros and Saradomin had fought way before then.
Although that was likely the slaughter of a bunch of innocent people due to false information given by Viggora, it was not the act that made Saradomin start fighting the Zarosians, they had fought plenty of times before that.

Source please?

I'll admit I can't actually find a source for that, the wiki page for Saradomin says he got involved in a war with Zaros during the Second Age, but it doesn't give a citation and I've been through multiple sources looking for one.
The closest I could actually give is that in the same part of the Virtus book you originally mentioned it talks about how Flamtaer, Torva's old hometown, was originally destroyed by ripper demons. We know Flamtaer is very close to Hallowvale so it may have been a Saradominist settlement before then.
However, it also goes on to say that the old temple originally left intact by the Ripper demons appeared to have been intentionally destroyed, presumably by the Saradominists, so it's unlikely that the town was originally Saradominist.
Most of Saradomin's involvement in Kandarin seems to have happened during the 3rd age, so that doesn't really seem to apply either.
It's still somewhat implied that Zaros was fighting with many of the other Gods on Gilenor until they all formed an alliance, that if any of them were attacked by Zaros they would all join in, which then lead to a cold war.
And Saradomin had a network of spies in Zaros' empire that knew about Zamorak's planned betrayal.
But I'll admit I can't find anything specifically talking about Zaros and Saradomin fighting each other during the Second Age.
I'd actually really like to see if a J-mod would make a statement about that. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

28-Nov-2017 23:56:00

Hguoh

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MystLunaris said :
It's still somewhat implied that Zaros was fighting with many of the other Gods on Gilenor until they all formed an alliance, that if any of them were attacked by Zaros they would all join in, which then lead to a cold war.
And Saradomin had a network of spies in Zaros' empire that knew about Zamorak's planned betrayal.

We indeed know that Zaros fought with many other gods on Gielinor. However, the reason that he gives for the cessation of the Empire's expansion was not an alliance of other gods, but a personal realization he had after Tumeken sacrificed himself at the end of the war with the Menaphite Pantheon. From Fate of the Gods:

Zaros: Not all Mahjarrat chose to leave Icthlarin's service, but the few that remained did not last long. So, in a desperate final act, the desert god Tumeken devastated his own lands to discourage me. I was given pause, and ended my campaign. I realized that I had become what I was fighting against.

As for the Saradominist spies, keep in mind that only Dhalak and Lenissa were actually aware of the SoA's presence, and Dhalak never passed along the information to Saradomin. So even if Saradomin knew Zamorak intended to betray Zaros, it's fairly unlikely that he'd have thought the betrayal would have been nearly as effective as it was.

And even when Saradomin became aware that Zaros was deposed (immediately as far as we are aware, given his appearance to claim the SoJ), it doesn't change the fact that, as far as he was aware, the Empire had attack his people unprovoked and only a small group of the rebel faction remained (it was over the course of the years between the coup and Zamorak's return that the rebellion gained a substantial following (likely aided by the presence of Saradomin's invading army and those of other gods)).

29-Nov-2017 17:10:12

Hguoh

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Considering Zaros never had to be involved the battlefield during the Empire's conquests, the Empire still initially could have posed a notable threat to Saradomin's people even after losing their god. So actively fighting a war with them makes a good amount of sense.

The continued attacks on the few remaining Zarosian loyalists seems a bit foolish (though one could argue that the ones that survived held enough substantial power to make them a notable threat), especially the continued hostility through the 3rd age (when the Zarosian armies were all but gone and he was dealing with Zamorak and sometimes Bandos).

29-Nov-2017 17:20:36

Hazeel

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Hguoh said :
However, the reason that he gives for the cessation of the Empire's expansion was not an alliance of other gods, but a personal realization he had after Tumeken sacrificed himself at the end of the war with the Menaphite Pantheon.

What are you talking about? It never stopped expanding. Part of the resentment the Mahjarrat had was that the empire had basically taken everything at this point and once they finished conquering Gielinor, the war would be over leading to a meaningless life of peace. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

29-Nov-2017 22:00:15

Hguoh

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Hazeel said :
Hguoh said :
However, the reason that he gives for the cessation of the Empire's expansion was not an alliance of other gods, but a personal realization he had after Tumeken sacrificed himself at the end of the war with the Menaphite Pantheon.

What are you talking about? It never stopped expanding. Part of the resentment the Mahjarrat had was that the empire had basically taken everything at this point and once they finished conquering Gielinor, the war would be over leading to a meaningless life of peace.

Hm. I guess Zaros was specifically referring to that specific war with the Menaphites then. Then again, that’s also when Zaros withdrew from the empire and left the Mahjarrart to run it, so any further expansion would have been driven either by their whims or what they believed Zaros wouldn’t have wanted them to do.

Granting that, there’s still no evidence currently for military conflict between Saradominists and Zaroaians during the 2nd age.

29-Nov-2017 23:03:48 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2017 23:06:59 by Hguoh

Aeldari

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MystLunaris said :

Mmmhmm, so what was the reason for sending all his armies into Gilenor to die during the Second Age (and now 6th age) when he could've easily left them where they were letting them live out peaceful lives?
He didn't even have a following (on Gilenor) when he first landed on Gilenor.
And of course why was he even on Gilenor in the first place? Well, it's pretty heavily implied he just came there because his crown told him that was where some God Artifacts were at.
So he basically just came there because he wanted some more powerful artifacts and then decided to go into various wars to get them. That doesn't really seem like doing things for good reasons to me.

Allow me to address your points one by one. Firstly Saradomin, like many many other Gods, came to Gielinor because it was the perfect world. The plethora of worlds in the universe were all imperfect with flaws of varying severity. The peaceful lives on other worlds you mention were not that peaceful, whether it be other wars, constant migration from winter, or living on a shattered world in search of water. Upon Gielinor these races would thrive in their relative kingdoms. I see no evidence ever presented that proclaims Saradomin arrived to start wars to aquire the Elder artifacts.

MystLunaris said :
We know that in the second age Saradomin was fighting Zaros before Zamorak even betrayed him and from this quote, by Zaros pretty clearly shows that Saradomin was the aggressor.
"I wanted to bring all the young gods under one banner, but they would not recognise my divinity. I would have welcomed them all, but they were blinkered by their own narrow, dogmatic views, and so they rejected me. I did not start wars; I was just better at them... and through war I started to make progress."
"Saradomin sought my secrets. Whether to steal them or bury them, I cannot say."
Seems like Saradomin is a pretty Warmongery guy to me.

~Lore Hound~

/~Enticed Clan~

30-Nov-2017 11:14:29

Aeldari

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As it was pointed out later in this thread, there is no evidence to support a claim that Saradomin was the aggressor against Zaros. I would argue the opposite in fact, we have seen the personality of Zaros when speaking to Jas about ascending, his outburst and anger even now that he claims he is wiser than before is very telling. Zaros claim was rejected by the other gods on Gielinor, and I do not see him simply walking away and never starting a war to enforce such a claim, it simply doesn't make sense given what we know.

It also appears that Zaros is a liar, unless I am mistaken that he was the aggressor in the Kharidian-Zarosian war. The diary of the mercenary Gram Kobold illustrates that the Kharidians were on the defensive and were losing until Itchlarin arrived with reinforcements in the form of the Mahjarrat. It stands to reason now given this information, that the word of Zaros is not entirely credible and can not be used a sole source of factual evidence.

MystLunaris said :

Also if Saradomin really cares about all his people why hasn't he gone back to Teragard and sorted everything out yet?
You think he'd visit every now and then just to check how everyone is doing, he probably doesn't even visit any of the other human colonies he made. As to this question I can only tell you what Saradomin himself said during Sliske's Endgame. When asked if he had returned to Teragard this was his response: "I...have not yet had the opportunity. Other worlds have greater need of my attention."

~Lore Hound~

/~Enticed Clan~

30-Nov-2017 11:29:23

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