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Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Questcaping said :
Sliske's Endgame, talking to him at the beginning of the quest (or after it; he still has the dialogue). And here I thought all the "Armadyl is gay" jokes were just banter. Thanks for that. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

19-Mar-2017 04:09:29 - Last edited on 19-Mar-2017 04:09:48 by Raleirosen

Rensler
Mar Member 2020

Rensler

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Raleirosen said :
Questcaping said :
Sliske's Endgame, talking to him at the beginning of the quest (or after it; he still has the dialogue). And here I thought all the "Armadyl is gay" jokes were just banter. Thanks for that.

Does it really matter if he is or not? Still a respectable God with a good philosophy even with the flaws he has. I don't imagine anyone wants to mess with him since he killed Bandos and has Seren on his side. Supporter of
Saradomin
Armadyl
Tumeken
V

19-Mar-2017 05:51:10

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Rensler said :
Raleirosen said :
Questcaping said :
Sliske's Endgame, talking to him at the beginning of the quest (or after it; he still has the dialogue). And here I thought all the "Armadyl is gay" jokes were just banter. Thanks for that.

Does it really matter if he is or not? Still a respectable God with a good philosophy even with the flaws he has. I don't imagine anyone wants to mess with him since he killed Bandos and has Seren on his side. I don't think anyone said they had an issue with it, just that Raleirosen didn't know it was canonically true.

As for if it matters, it doesn't so far as the plot is concerned, and I seriously doubt Jagex will put any in depth commentary on sexuality in the game. I appreciated it though.

NachtWeaver said :


Seren embodies rationalized slavery and/or Stockholm syndrome. She manipulated the Mahjarrat into needlessly killing each other. She tends to go back and forth between idealistic pandering and nonchalant self pity masquerading as taking responsibility for her actions.

Zamorak's ideals on the surface sound 'evil'. But in reality, it just isn't sugarcoated fluff. I believe the creation of the Wilderness was a moment of weakness based on his Freneskaean origins. When backed into a corner, a Mahjarrat is likely to lash out rather than concede. So you'll give Zamorak a pass because of his cultural background, but not Seren for being literally created to forcibly love and be loved by others?

Also the Ritual being fake seems to be something of a plot hole; Hazeel mentions that the Mahserrat withered away because they refused to undergo the rituals. The only explanation to fill in the hole is if only seemed like that because other tribes killed them and the Mahserrat didn't reproduce. That's never explicitly stated though.

19-Mar-2017 05:56:25 - Last edited on 19-Mar-2017 06:09:52 by Rifleavenger

Questcaping
Feb Member 2020

Questcaping

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Rifleavenger said :
As for if it matters, it doesn't so far as the plot is concerned, and I seriously doubt Jagex will put any in depth commentary on sexuality in the game. I appreciated it though.

I agree, and just want to add: I honestly don't think they could pull off any attempt at in-depth commentary. I'm a big ol' lesbian myself, and I've found that attempts to have "commentary" on sexuality or whatever often come off ham-handed if not done well and/or by someone with personal experience. The fact that in this world, even a major god is not necessarily straight (or cisgender, cf. Angof)? That's great in itself; something I've been happy to see. Deeper commentary can be good and has its place, but isn't needed here.

Enough said about this. Back on-topic.

Rifleavenger said :
Also the Ritual being fake seems to be something of a plot hole; Hazeel mentions that the Mahserrat withered away because they refused to undergo the rituals. The only explanation to fill in the hole is if only seemed like that because other tribes killed them and the Mahserrat didn't reproduce. That's never explicitly stated though.

I've always assumed that Seren made it so that they'd die if they didn't go through with the Rituals. A real danger, but one of Seren's construction. (Can't find any dialogue in Children of Mah supporting this though. Sure I got it from somewhere...)

Perhaps she tied their life forces to Mah and had them draining into her bit by bit? Whereas Rituals could stave that off somewhat by redistributing the power. And what Mah did to kick off the events of the quest was just an acceleration of the constant drain.

Regardless, the idea of Seren having enforced rituals like this makes things much worse, of course. Not only is she indirectly responsible for the deaths of those who died in the Rituals, she's directly responsible for the deaths of all those who didn't go through with them.
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19-Mar-2017 07:24:51

Questcaping
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Questcaping

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Oh, and forgot to mention: the Mahjarrat definitely deteriorate when they haven't attended the rituals, as was the case with Jhallan. There's absolutely something tangible behind that, and it can't really be anything other than Seren's doing.

Another thought -- making it a separate post because I ran out of room in my previous one.

Rifleavenger said :
The only explanation to fill in the hole is if only seemed like that because other tribes killed them and the Mahserrat didn't reproduce.

If they didn't go through with the Ritual of Rejuvenation, it makes sense that they wouldn't go through with the Ritual of Enervation either.

(As for "other tribes killed them", that seems like a very safe assumption to make, what with Azzy and Sliske having entirely wiped out the Mahkorat as vengeance for a single murder that they didn't even commit. Seems like genocide wasn't exactly a rare commodity on Freneskae.)
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19-Mar-2017 08:03:01

Summerleaf
Nov Member 2012

Summerleaf

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Questcaping said :

(As for "other tribes killed them", that seems like a very safe assumption to make, what with Azzy and Sliske having entirely wiped out the Mahkorat as vengeance for a single murder that they didn't even commit. Seems like genocide wasn't exactly a rare commodity on Freneskae.)

This is a fantastic argument that I haven't seen anyone use yet, and I'm surprised I haven't thought about it.

Why is genocide acceptable when the Mahjarrat do it, but when Seren did it (with good intentions) she's automatically the most evil person alive (Note: I am not defending her actions, just questioning the accountability standards by players)?

19-Mar-2017 20:00:09

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Summerleaf said :
Questcaping said :

(As for "other tribes killed them", that seems like a very safe assumption to make, what with Azzy and Sliske having entirely wiped out the Mahkorat as vengeance for a single murder that they didn't even commit. Seems like genocide wasn't exactly a rare commodity on Freneskae.)

This is a fantastic argument that I haven't seen anyone use yet, and I'm surprised I haven't thought about it.

Why is genocide acceptable when the Mahjarrat do it, but when Seren did it (with good intentions) she's automatically the most evil person alive (Note: I am not defending her actions, just questioning the accountability standards by players)? It's probably because Seren isn't exactly what one would expect to be evil. Therefore, it becomes a massive bombshell (use Saradomin for reference) and Mary Sue becomes the Wicked Witch of the West. Meanwhile, if an 'evil' person does the same thing, it's expected and normal, and when they say or do something else that can in some twisted sense justify their actions, they become the new hero.

Note: Not having a dig at Seren or Saradomin here, just making an analysis based on Jagex's attempts to grey out the gods. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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19-Mar-2017 20:06:11

Rifleavenger
May Member 2022

Rifleavenger

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Ancient Drew said :
It's probably because Seren isn't exactly what one would expect to be evil. Therefore, it becomes a massive bombshell (use Saradomin for reference) and Mary Sue becomes the Wicked Witch of the West. Meanwhile, if an 'evil' person does the same thing, it's expected and normal, and when they say or do something else that can in some twisted sense justify their actions, they become the new hero.

Note: Not having a dig at Seren or Saradomin here, just making an analysis based on Jagex's attempts to grey out the gods. It only takes one drop black to turn white to grey, and vice versa.

One byproduct of Jagex trying to even the moral playing field is that they've had to focus on bringing certain deities down while bringing others up. Ethical affirmative action, so to speak, and I don't disagree with them doing it. Certain gods (ex. Saradomin) had literal years of unabashed good publicity while others (ex. Zamorak) were pretty much there for easy antagonists and players who wanted to play for the evluls.

That said, I think they've done a good job of making the gods sufficiently nuanced (it's one of the few things about the story lately that honestly impresses me), and they need to swing a little bit back in a positive direction for Saradomin et al . People often have a "what have you done for me lately" mentality, and if you show someone consistently in a negative light within recent memory that can actually hinder trying to present a truly mixed viewpoint. Present the good alongside the bad and the truth of things will come into focus.

19-Mar-2017 20:44:18

Summerleaf
Nov Member 2012

Summerleaf

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Rifleavenger said :
...and they need to swing a little bit back in a positive direction for Saradomin et al .

I think that post-endgame, they're gonna start sticking with neutral/good aspects of the Gods (when they're on their own), since endgame was basically Attack Therapy, bringing all of their issues to the front.

It'll be nice, because I'm starting to get bored of bashing Saradomin. I want something to challenge my insistence that he should be destroyed (maybe he should learn some manners when talking with the World Guardian).

20-Mar-2017 01:05:34 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 08:28:21 by Summerleaf

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Summerleaf said :
Why is genocide acceptable when the Mahjarrat do it, but when Seren did it (with good intentions) she's automatically the most evil person alive (Note: I am not defending her actions, just questioning the accountability standards by players)? The Mahkorat genocide is "acceptable" because it was a textbook case of massive retaliation taking place between primitive tribes on a death trap of a world, where zero sum is par for the course. The fact that it was based on false pretenses makes it a tragedy, but the Mahjarrat probably didn't know not to trust Sliske that far back; the blame really belongs with Sliske, not the Mahjarrat.

Summerleaf said :
It'll be nice, because I'm starting to get bored of bashing Saradomin. I want something to challenge my insentience that he should be destroyed (maybe he should learn some manners when talking with the World Guardian). Saradomin treated me with unerring respect during Endgame. The problem might lie with you, m8. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Mar-2017 03:13:52 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 03:28:41 by Raleirosen

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