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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism
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Raleirosen
said
:
Cthris said :
But tell me, how would you prove that there is a difference in quality between life now and life during the dark ages? Countless arguments to be made here... increases in lifespan and leisure time, skyrocketed literacy rates, more freedom afforded to more people in general, as well as advances in morality such as the abolition of slavery. Whether people are happier now than they were back then is probably the question you're leading towards, though.
Honestly all I was looking for is to establish a method of measuring societies against one another since Giras kept mentioning advancement without actually saying what we were advancing towards. Possible methods of measure could be: happiness, perceived security, longevity, morality etc.
(In regards to the freedom suggestion I actually just finished a paper on Benjamin Constant who made an impressive speach arguing that we haven't become any more free than ancient societies, just that our ideas of what freedom is has changed.)
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
Cthris said :
But tell me, how would you prove that there is a difference in quality between life now and life during the dark ages? Countless arguments to be made here... increases in lifespan and leisure time, skyrocketed literacy rates, more freedom afforded to more people in general, as well as advances in morality such as the abolition of slavery. Whether people are happier now than they were back then is probably the question you're leading towards, though.
Honestly all I was looking for is to establish a method of measuring societies against one another since Giras kept mentioning advancement without actually saying what we were advancing towards. Possible methods of measure could be: happiness, perceived security, longevity, morality etc.
(In regards to the freedom suggestion I actually just finished a paper on Benjamin Constant who made an impressive speach arguing that we haven't become any more free than ancient societies, just that our ideas of what freedom is has changed.)
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
22-Mar-2017 04:08:38 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 04:12:19 by Cthris
Cthris
said
:
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
I know better than to try to talk to a philosophy major. Because a lot of definitions of good or improvement can be subjective, you can pull all sorts of shit to avoid recognizing any evidence I present.
There is no winning an argument like that, the most I can do is not indulge your bullshit any further.
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
I know better than to try to talk to a philosophy major. Because a lot of definitions of good or improvement can be subjective, you can pull all sorts of shit to avoid recognizing any evidence I present.
There is no winning an argument like that, the most I can do is not indulge your bullshit any further.
I'm no one's servant!
Good. Never let anyone think differently
.
22-Mar-2017 04:23:24
Giras
said
:
Cthris said :
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
I know better than to try to talk to a philosophy major. Because a lot of definitions of good or improvement can be subjective, you can pull all sorts of shit to avoid recognizing any evidence I present.
There is no winning an argument like that, the most I can do is not indulge your bullshit any further.
Not a philosophy major... at least not on paper. My current major, until I get around to changing it, is Social Science with a specialization in criminology. Not that talking to a social science major is any better, especially a crim one at that. Criminology doesn't even make sense as a science...
And by "pull all sorts of shit" I assume you mean asking you to explain your views lol. But I thank you for the compliment, it's kind of you to say that there is no winning an argument where I am in a position to refute. I take great pride in my ability to refute
Cthris said :
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
I know better than to try to talk to a philosophy major. Because a lot of definitions of good or improvement can be subjective, you can pull all sorts of shit to avoid recognizing any evidence I present.
There is no winning an argument like that, the most I can do is not indulge your bullshit any further.
Not a philosophy major... at least not on paper. My current major, until I get around to changing it, is Social Science with a specialization in criminology. Not that talking to a social science major is any better, especially a crim one at that. Criminology doesn't even make sense as a science...
And by "pull all sorts of shit" I assume you mean asking you to explain your views lol. But I thank you for the compliment, it's kind of you to say that there is no winning an argument where I am in a position to refute. I take great pride in my ability to refute
22-Mar-2017 05:02:33
Cthris
said
:
Honestly all I was looking for is to establish a method of measuring societies against one another since Giras kept mentioning advancement without actually saying what we were advancing towards. Possible methods of measure could be: happiness, perceived security, longevity, morality etc.
(In regards to the freedom suggestion I actually just finished a paper on Benjamin Constant who made an impressive speach arguing that we haven't become any more free than ancient societies, just that our ideas of what freedom is has changed.)
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
It is an interesting topic, but I think the best way to answer it is to ask yourself which time period you would rather live in. I can't imagine most people would pick the Dark Ages over present day (if you were to compare the present to other time periods then the answer might change, of course).
As for myself, I consider stats on things like longevity and literacy to be good enough metrics (in addition to scientific progress and the ever-increasing scope of technology).
Giras said :
Hey Ralei... good to see you haven't lost your ability to be queen mean girl in all venues. Half the people in this forum are mad at me, and the other half only like me because they think I put someone down on the internet for fun, so that's not good. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.
Honestly all I was looking for is to establish a method of measuring societies against one another since Giras kept mentioning advancement without actually saying what we were advancing towards. Possible methods of measure could be: happiness, perceived security, longevity, morality etc.
(In regards to the freedom suggestion I actually just finished a paper on Benjamin Constant who made an impressive speach arguing that we haven't become any more free than ancient societies, just that our ideas of what freedom is has changed.)
Admittedly, following any answer I would do my best to point out inconsistency
As of yet, I haven't seen a wholly satisfying proof that modern society is more advanced than historic society, but surely someone so confident as Giras must have an answer.
It is an interesting topic, but I think the best way to answer it is to ask yourself which time period you would rather live in. I can't imagine most people would pick the Dark Ages over present day (if you were to compare the present to other time periods then the answer might change, of course).
As for myself, I consider stats on things like longevity and literacy to be good enough metrics (in addition to scientific progress and the ever-increasing scope of technology).
Giras said :
Hey Ralei... good to see you haven't lost your ability to be queen mean girl in all venues. Half the people in this forum are mad at me, and the other half only like me because they think I put someone down on the internet for fun, so that's not good. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.
22-Mar-2017 07:15:32 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 07:32:33 by Raleirosen
Hguoh
said
:
Cthris said :
The longevity one I always find a bit funny because it suggests that tortoises have a more advanced society than we do lol.
I think that it's meant to be an argument based on comparing the longevity of each time period with respect to the specie's natural lifespan. In the case of humans, we've had a verifiable increase on that metric both from the baseline and as the years have gone on. In the case of Tortoise, however, their lifespan likely hasn't changed much from their baseline and probably hasn't improved notably since the middle ages (if anything, I'd expect their lifespan to have actually dropped by one degree or another due to humanity's impact of the environments of various species).
That's a clever response
However consider the following hypothetical scenario: There is a society of near immortal beings that has existed for 5 million years. Every member of this society throughout these 5 million year has lived exactly 2000 years. They have interstellar travel, all of them can read, their brains operate with the efficiency of supercomputers and oh they are vegan too because why not. Would you really want to say that they are less advanced than humans simply because they haven't found a way to increase their lifespan.
That being said, cross species comparisons isn't my only way to refute. I just liked the idea of tortoises being some super advanced society lol. I could point out that longevity doesn't tell you as much about the society as you might think. It only really tells you about the presence or more accurately the lack there off environmental pressures.
Let's say a new deadly virus is unleashed tomorrow and it lowers our longevity rate by 5 years. Can you really say that society tomorrow is less advanced than society today?
Cthris said :
The longevity one I always find a bit funny because it suggests that tortoises have a more advanced society than we do lol.
I think that it's meant to be an argument based on comparing the longevity of each time period with respect to the specie's natural lifespan. In the case of humans, we've had a verifiable increase on that metric both from the baseline and as the years have gone on. In the case of Tortoise, however, their lifespan likely hasn't changed much from their baseline and probably hasn't improved notably since the middle ages (if anything, I'd expect their lifespan to have actually dropped by one degree or another due to humanity's impact of the environments of various species).
That's a clever response
However consider the following hypothetical scenario: There is a society of near immortal beings that has existed for 5 million years. Every member of this society throughout these 5 million year has lived exactly 2000 years. They have interstellar travel, all of them can read, their brains operate with the efficiency of supercomputers and oh they are vegan too because why not. Would you really want to say that they are less advanced than humans simply because they haven't found a way to increase their lifespan.
That being said, cross species comparisons isn't my only way to refute. I just liked the idea of tortoises being some super advanced society lol. I could point out that longevity doesn't tell you as much about the society as you might think. It only really tells you about the presence or more accurately the lack there off environmental pressures.
Let's say a new deadly virus is unleashed tomorrow and it lowers our longevity rate by 5 years. Can you really say that society tomorrow is less advanced than society today?
22-Mar-2017 13:02:35
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